Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: lordgoober on December 17, 2013, 04:45:01 AM
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Ok. We are hashing out a change to the fleet composition rules for Adepticon this year. It has to do with the bonus ships beyond the 1500 point standard fleet comp.
There will be no transport requirement.
The change is this.
Fleet size is increased to 1750 base. You may spend up to 350 points on an Auxiliary Flotilla.
Auxilia Flotilla rules.
1 cruiser of max 8 HP. has to be from a different racial fleet from the primary fleet.
1 squadron of 2-6 escorts. These must be from a different racial fleet from the primary fleet. These escorts can be from the same fleet list as the Auxiliary cruiser but that is not a requirement.
Restrictions:
Auxiliary Flotilla cannot be from a secondary fleet list of the same race (IE different sector of Imperial Navy allying together. But Imperial Navy could have an Adeptus Mechanicus auxiliary)
Dark Eldar ships in the Auxiliary Flotilla are not allowed to have Mimic Engines.
Tyranid Ships are not allowed to be part of an Auxiliary Flotilla.
However Tyranid fleets may have an Auxiliary Flotilla as those ships would be controlled by a Genestealer Cult.
The flotilla will also have one special rule, chosen by the controlling player at fleet creation
1. Expert gunners= Left column shift for all Weapon Battery based weapons
2. Vet fighter aces= stays alive for one extra set of ordnance gone through compared to standard attack craft of the race
3. Upgraded Lance Firing Matrix=Lances Hit on 4+ as standard but may reroll failed hits without needing lock on special order. However these rerolls only hit on 5+ if you don't use the Lock On special order.
You are not required to use an auxiliary
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I dunno, it might be interesting. But will all options be allowed? Inquisition with Chaos auxillaries per example?
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The idea here was to mimic what goes on with 6th ed allies matrix of Current 40k edition. well be answering that soon enough
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This is the Adepticon 2014 BFG Allies Matrix
Green: Can be allied
Red: Cannot
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I dunno, it might be interesting. But will all options be allowed? Inquisition with Chaos auxillaries per example?
Ever heard of the radical inquisitors that insist on using the weapons of Chaos to fight it? :)
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The idea here was to mimic what goes on with 6th ed allies matrix of Current 40k edition. well be answering that soon enough
Ah. Well, I don't play 40k (stopped at the time 3rd edition came out). But I read that allied business and frankly do not like it. ;)
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If thats the case you can make up a characterful story as to why, and we can change the allies matrix to accomadate that and leave it as is it is stated in the rules on the first post. just to keep it simple. and relegate just to Nids
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I just saw this and I like the matrix idea and here's how we'll work it.
We will hash out a chart much like what Raptor put here. There will be 4 Categories.
Your standard fleet will be the left column
The ally you are bringing in will be the top row chart.
Based upon that you will have one of these 4 options in a particular verge spot.\
Trusted: Base Leadership Die roll for race
Untrusted: -1 to the Leadership Die roll for race, minimum 1 on the die roll
Desperate: As Untrusted but -1 to Leadership result ala the Ork LD rolls
Not Allowed: Nuff Said ^_^
and on the comment of the Radical Inquisitors, if it hadn't been about 2am when i saw that comment I was going to say that's PERFECTLY legit. That being said, this almost makes me want to add in the rules from what is it, Battlefleet Cadia for the reserve fleet chaos ships for the lower levels of this ally chart.
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The idea is nice, and actually is very interesting for example to have an imperial fleet and 1 space marines strike cruiser helping, or CW eldar/dark eldars with outcast, thinks like that sounds nice, but I don't understand with the auxilary flotilla should have an special rule. Is not good enought to have ships from other fleet list?
specially considering necrons and tyranids are not supose to have auxiliary flotillas (seriously genestealer cult doesn't make many sence for me)
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You're giving us stuff to think about. Maybe we don't need the special abilities. Nothing is completely set in stone at this point.
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Giving the Auxiliary Force special rules and elite status was to add flavor and character to your rather small fleet. Simply for them to specialize in one of those three things
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The special abilities:
Imagine those weapon batteries special rule on Eldar. Or on AdMech with already the upgraded gunnery gift. I think the rules favour some races to a certain extend.
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No Genestealer cult controlled Imperial vessels?!?!?!?! WHHHAAAATTTT?!?!??!?! jk.
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Do you guys think on the Weapon Battery one it would be more balanced to change it to "doesn't take column shift penalties for range or blast markers"
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Someone needs to play Necron with AdMech allies...
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Just to be sure I am understanding here. You can have a 1400pt main fleet with 350pts of allies. Optionally you can just have a 1750 fleet with no allies.
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Correct or anywhere in between. However there will be 1 bonus battle point per game that will have to do with the allied flotilla (one with respect to the opponent's flotilla so if you don't have one they get that point)
We have made up a basic allies matrix chart in an excel spreadsheet that's on a different laptop of mine that I will try to get up here in the next day or so.
The basic gist of the chart will be a lot like the 6e 40k allies chart. You will have Trusted, Untrusted and Desperate Allies.
Trusted Allies will have Leadership as is normal for the allied fleet.
Untrusted Allies will have a die roll -1 of leadership so will roll 1-5 on the chart.
Desperate Allies will have the 1-5 roll on the chart and then -1 on their leadership beyond that AND they will be subject to the Reserve Fleets rules as if you were fighting against Chaos in the rules in the Armada Book on page 29 of the dead tree copy.
Not Allowed: This combination of fleets is not allowed.
Not to worry. Most fleets will have at least one option that is at least Untrusted with the exception of the Tyranids.
There is one clarification that will be made with respect to Tau working with Chaos and vice versa. The Chaos contingent may NOT contain a Daemonship if you wish to have them allied with Tau.
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Nice work with the allies stuff! I like what you've done there with the allies chart and how leadership will look with the different relationships.
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Still seeking clarity. .
You can mix and match anything available to ally in the flotilla, don't have to bring a cruiser but if you do its only one and 350 is the maximum. You could have a tau fleet of 1400 with an imperial lite cruiser and six eldar hemlocks. You can have say a chaos fleet of 1500pts with 5 de escorts
Could you take Xenos escorts as your flotilla with out any rogue trader ships?
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That is correct. We're looking to spice things up this year as GW has killed the support for the system (as if it's been there for the past half-decade anyway) so we need to keep our interest up.
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Sounds interesting. I can't, off the top of my head, think of any really broken combos like 40k has at the moment. Not at that point level with the restrictions. A flotila of eldar will be annoying in anyone's list as they snipe your flanks but I don't think they will be unstopable. Thats the worst I can think of.
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The main thing to say right now before anyone gets stuff started. No fleet may take any Tyranid ships as part of an allied contingent.
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I thought of something broken. Its not the allies rule that does it but its the bump up to 1750.
Necrons
tombship
tombship
cruiser
cruiser.
Thats 1550 so 200 left for allies. I'd probabally just go for lt cruiser plus re-rolls and just kill everything rather than worry about mission objectives.
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Hi folks We been hard at work with the new allies matrix as follows,
this is the NEW ALLIES MATRIX below. and update to how the allies matrix will work
Trusted Allies will have Leadership as is normal for the allied fleet.
Untrusted Allies will have a die roll -1 of leadership so will roll 1-5 on the chart.
Desperate Allies will have the 1-5 roll on the chart and then -1 on their leadership beyond that AND they will be subject to the Reserve Fleets rules as if you were fighting against Chaos in the rules in the Armada Book on page 29 of the dead tree copy.
Not Allowed: This combination of fleets is not allowed.
Most fleets will have at least one option that is at least Untrusted with the exception of the Tyranids.
There is one clarification that will be made with respect to Tau working with Chaos and vice versa. The Chaos contingent may NOT contain a Daemonship if you wish to have them allied with Tau.
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I don't think AdMech and Ork should be allowed; I don't imagine the Machine Spirit would look very kindly upon it.
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Out of sheer curiosity, how come Eldar and Dark Eldar have so bad standing? They're usually each others' most trusted allies (not trusted, mind you. They don't tend to trust anyone)... There are nearly none recorded large scale conflicts between them and several cases of mutual aid. It's not high and dark elf situation of 'worst enemies and total opposites'.
Their ways are different, but both see each other as only civilized people in the universe...
They're battle brothers in 40k chart for a reason...
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Also why do the Necrons trust the AdMech more than other Necrons? And why do the AdMech trust Necrons period?
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On the necron and Ad mech side, what is buried deep within Mars? ;)
Maybe we will change the Eldar/Dark Eldar split to untrusted.
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Personally I think that's far more reason against than for :P And it still doesn't explain why necron:admech > necron:necron ;D
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As much as I have bad feelings as about this, the new chart looks better but Corsair, Craftworld, Dark Eldar should be green green green!
Like Khar said.
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ok. I think you're making sense on the Eldar working together much more. As a note, if contingent used, it's supposed to be NOT from your own main fleet race so same working with same doesn't really matter ^_^.
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Ok so here is my main question about this: why would I take another fleet's stuff when it is basically spending points on something that gets me downsides? I'm going to bring Tyranids again most likely, so why would I bring allies when I could just take more Tyranids?
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Ya it seems that you should have a mandatory amount of "allies" if thats the direction you're going to go. Eldar admech and SM seems the most likely to stand out due to their already above average leadership. Im going to have to take a look at this on the computer to get a better view because a few of these seem pretty off (Admech trusts Tau more then IN or space marines?)
Ok so looking at these this is where I would think they would fall.
Admech allies: Chaos orange, Inquisition yellow, IN green, Necrons orange, Space Marines green
Chaos allies: Admech orange, Inquisition yellow, and Space Marines red
D Eldar allies: DE green, Eldar green, and Inquisition orange
Eldar allies: (includes CWE?) DE green, and Inquisition orange
Inquisition allies: Everything should be yellow or orange, except the Nids
IN allies: Necrons orange
Necron allies: Admech orange and Inquisition orange.
Ork allies: Rogue trader yellow, SM red
Rogue trader: Inquisition SM and orks yellow.
SM allies: Admech green, Inquisition yellow, orks red, Rogue trader yellow
Tau: Inquisition orange
Nids: red lots of red and more red.
Ordo Hereticus Inquisitior Lord allows for Admech, Inquisition, IN, RT and Space Marines as Green allies.
Ordo Xenos Inquisitior Lord allows for any one alien race to be yellow. *except nids
Ordo Malleus Inquisitior Lord allows for Chaos as green allies.
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Two things. Isn't there some new updates about Tau and the Imperium that would make their alliances more of an option. Also, if genestealer cults can take over planets, I suppose that should be accounted for here in some way.
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The genestealer cults is why I even had ally options available for them. The way the chart is done, the your main fleet is on the left then you ally options are from the top.
The reason I had them all as Desperate allies is because I figured that the Genestealer Cult would be in control of the main command of the ship but not the whole ship, kinda like was put in part of the fluff in the Armada Chaos section I think about the still loyal crew in the engineering department.
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Goober, I was mainly referring to Andrew's list. Also, what about my earlier comment?
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since were bring up a lot of changes...
I will be changing the allies matrix accordingly, I was thinking
we can make the auxiliary flotilla a mandatory for all fleets. have a total base of 1750pts to begin with, then mandatory for 250 points of allies.. how does this sound?
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Whats the reasoning behind the manditory allies number? Seems it would be easier to fit in with less restrictions. The lower number of points spent on them the crappier they will be so its sort of self regulating. Cherry picking the best stuff is kind of the point of allies or why else would you take them to a tournament?
Is no one else concerned about a double tombship list in this format? If not you are going to be rudely surprised come april. A necron player I know is coming and if he is allowed to take two he is going to take two.
As to the various allies fluff arguements can be made in almost any direction. Admech cult could worship something under Mars or it could believe the crons are the most unnatural thing ever. It all depends on how extreme the Admech guys are. Whatever you decide someone will not agree so just decide. Rule with your iron fist of doom.
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The Mandatory allies number is more because it's a replacement for the Transports from the past. You still have your 1500 point base fleet but instead of transports, you're getting allies from another fleet. You don't have to use all the 250 points but any not used are lost and you can use up to 100 of your main fleet to balance out points as needed.
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So why not just say this is a 1,500pt tournament and you may bring up to 250pts of allies on top of that using the chart?
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I think that was the original way I had written the rules. That will probably be how it's stated in the final rules pdf that will go on the adepticon website.
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Sweet. Can't wait for that packet!
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If the intention is to have 1500pt fleets you should then allow people to ally with themselves for the extra 250 if they want a "pure" fleet. This would be instead of the straight 1750. 1750 allows all kinds of shenanigans like opening up more Battlecruiser or grandcruiser slots or what have you. If the ally fleet was an extra thing, unconnected in any way to your main fleet list it would level the playing field and give the "pure" lists no advantage over the mixed ones. As it stands I'm seeing more advantage to not bringing allies but instead just bringing a 1750 fleet list.
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Unseelied, what I think they are going for is to not allow 1750pt single fleets. Saying 1500pts with additional 250pts of allies then makes it level out and gets rid of the 1750 fleets. They should probably also say that the allies don't contribute to requirements for bigger ships. Just count them as an entirely different small fleet.
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Dan's got the intent absolutely right. If we wanted to we could make this just a good old vanilla 1500 point tournament but we felt it was going to make things more interesting by bringing in allied contingents. If you don't want an allied contingent? Fine, your fleet is 1500 points.
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The problem is going to be for fleets who only have allies that are all orange and some other fleets have lots of green. So, if you take IN, you have the option for the least punished option, which would be SM, Admech, or Rogue Trader. Tyranids, Necrons, and Chaos will enter the tournament at a disadvantage because they have no green. The only way around this, from what I can tell, is to allow you to take an ally of your own fleet type but still make it so it has its own fleet list.
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thats right what Dan said, wre finishing the packets, and follow up ruleset, and allies matrix, unfortunately it's the same thing that happens with 40k 6th ed
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Mind if I take a crack at it? There's probably going to be some objectionable "trusted" allies, and probably an asymmetric pattern; but it might come out a bit more even (if that's the desired outcome?).
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go ahead. while we're adding new things to this year, on the fleet design side, it's better if people will enjoy what we're doing. I'd like to see your idea.
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I'll give it a go...
Definitions:
Disallowed - Simply not allowed, reserved purely for same-fleet allies.
Trusted - People who might get along by choice when pressed
Necessity - Either given their marching orders, or under the understanding that they'll get back to killing each other afterwards
Distrust - Ongoing concern about "friendly" fire, suspicious "weapon systems failures" and conspicuous absence in battle
Hostile - Shoot first, shoot some more; don't leave anyone alive to ask questions.
Disallowed:
You cannot take allies from your own type, ie IN/IN, Chaos/Chaos etc
Trusted zone:
Admech: Imperial Navy, Space Marines
Chaos: Ork, Eldar
Dark Eldar: Eldar, Rogue Trader
Eldar: Dark Eldar, Rogue Trader
Inquisition: Imperial Navy
Imperial Navy: Space Marines, Admech
Necrons: Admech, Chaos
Orks: Chaos, Imperial Navy
Rogue Trader: Inquisition
Space Marine: Admech
Tau: Rogue Trader
Tyranids: Necrons
Allies by necessity:
Admech: Imperial Navy, Space Marines, Inquisition
Chaos: Ork, Eldar, Tau,
Dark Eldar: Eldar, Rogue Trader
Eldar: Dark Eldar, Rogue Trader, Chaos
Inquisition: Imperial Navy, Space Marines, Admech
Imperial Navy: Space Marines, Admech, Inquisition, Rogue Trader
Necrons: Admech, Chaos, Inquisition
Orks: Chaos, Imperial Navy, Rogue Trader
Rogue Trader: Inquisition, Imperial Navy
Space Marine: Admech, Imperial Navy, Inquisiton
Tau: Rogue Trader, Eldar
Tyranids: Necrons, Chaos
Distrusted:
Admech: Imperial Navy, Space Marines, Inquisition, Rogue Trader, Tau
Chaos: Ork, Eldar, Tau, Imperial Navy
Dark Eldar: Eldar, Rogue Trader, Chaos, Tau
Eldar: Dark Eldar, Rogue Trader, Chaos, Tau
Inquisition: Imperial Navy, Space Marines, Admech, Rogue Trader
Imperial Navy: Space Marines, Admech, Inquisition, Rogue Trader, Chaos
Necrons: Admech, Chaos, Inquisition, Imperial Navy
Orks: Chaos, Imperial Navy, Rogue Trader, Space Marines
Rogue Trader: Inquisition, Imperial Navy, Space Marines
Space Marine: Admech, Imperial Navy, Inquisiton, Rogue Trader
Tau: Rogue Trader, Eldar, Imperial Navy
Tyranids: Necrons, Chaos, Orks
Anything left is hostile.
If anyone wants to throw that into a chart like the previous one, that'd be amazing as it would give much better oversight over who has what allies and if anyone has too few or too many.
This list has been compiled mostly thematically. Some of the allies are only one-way, representing people you're willing to assist because you can stab them in the back later, but you'd not want them covering your rear, or largely where the Imperium is concerned, you've been ordered to assist them but would not trust them yourself.
Tyranids have gained some friends, though they only just about trust the Necrons because they've figured out they're not very tasty... However, nobody trusts them, so nobody gets them as allies.
Some people (especially Orks and IN) have allies through respect earned by fighting each other (a bit like Commissar Yarrick).
Obviously open to suggestions, and I'd be happy for a table to be based off this lot. The trusted allies were largely the core of the idea (some of them were made up on the fly), but most of the other grades of ally were made up on the fly.
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Another point to keep in mind is 250pts of anything really isn't that scary so the advantages of say an imperial fleet with allies over a nid one aren't going to be world shaking as long as the nids can get at least something to ally with. Its basicly going to be one squadron of escorts or a cruiser.
I think having yourself as an ally is something to be looked into as a possible thing. Especially if it is a separate fleet and doens't open the doors to extra battlecruisers or something. Maybe the nids could get a vanguard fleet contingent that doesn't listen to the hive ships but runs with those rules instead.
On the other side of the coin why can't the nids be best buds with IN? Maybe the officer corps is part of the cult. Maybe the whole fleet is part of the cult. Maybe chaos could get a flotilla that follows a different god. There are what something like six chaos lists now. I think the fluff can be reasonablly stretched so that everyone can get at least one best buddy even if it is a fringe group of themselves.
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Point on the Vanguard fleet with the Tyranids.
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Unseelied, and Isla I like this alot, we'll be modified a couple thing and the vanguard nid thing is great I agree that each fleet should have at least 1 trusted. we'll get on it, update to follow shortly
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I wanted to ask, since I've got the adepticon guys on this thread, what is the adepticon policy for proxy armies at the BFG tourney? Now that GW has stopped producing models for BFG will you allow in say counts as firestorm armada fleets? What is legal and what is not? Thanks.
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That is something we are going to be discussing as time goes on. The simple answer I can give right now is as long as it's in relative close scale to BFG and you clearly identify what ship class it is supposed to represent and it's fairly close in size and weaponry where applicable to what it represents (IE you can't use a battleship size fig from another company to represent an escort) it is going to be legal.
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Goober, I was mainly referring to Andrew's list. Also, what about my earlier comment?
Andrew me, or Andrew someone else?
Also, no SM and Chaos? The Red Corsairs have modern marine vessels alongside their other stuff. Also, is Acon sticking to BFG + FAQ like every year? (pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease)
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Yes. for this year at least we are at BFG + FAQ like years past. Whether we switch to BFG:R in the future or not is something we'll probably discuss at the event itself.
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I'd rather continue with standard instead of fan-made, but that's just me! :D
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I'd have to agree. Standard is better than fan-made in my book also. I was under the impression it wasn't actually finished yet anyway.(I could be wrong as I am not really following it) The only reason I can think of for Adepticon to move to it would be if the majority of players who are coming to adepticon are using it. No one around my part of the earth is using it but I don't know what the BFG scene around chicago is like.
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Revised is indeed not finished yet. So sticking to official rules plus (never made official ;) ) FAQ is the best thing to do.
To me it is a pity because that means the game uses those daft overlapping rules + the not 1.0 blastmarker rules + rhe broken ;) Eldar rules (heh heh).
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It is a little strange that the community has embraced the FAQ even though it isn't officially official. I guess the fact that they came from the "high admiralty" made it more legitimate in some way. In comparison BFG-R is just written by some guys. Technically the high admiralty are just some guys too but for whatever reason it makes a difference. I'm not really sure how one became a member of the high admiralty but in my mind they are associated with the game from its earliest beginings and they as a group were trusted with the various FAQs and such. Even if they really aren't they just seem more knowlegable and legitimate. BFG-R guys are just guys on the internet whos knowledge and skill are unknown quantities.
Does the FAQ have issues? Sure. I too think the stacky rules are stupid. I'm not sure what you are talking about with the blast markers rules. The Eldar are a hard matchup for some fleets and sometimes annoying to play against but I've never had a problem with them. Nids got shafted with not being able to use their Biomorphs with out permission. That whole ork clans list needs to go in the trash.
I can go on but despite some small problems the game is surprisingly balanced for such an aged game and for the most part works well without further revision. Thats the key. If the game was seriously broken then the fan rules would have a chance to be widely accepted but they won't be because they aren't. As it stands I have no doubt I will be able to go to adepticon and have three games of BFG with total strangers and everything will run smooth using just official rules plus FAQ.
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Yeah, the FAQ has been made by the HA, thus it got a more accepted character.
The current HA (well, if they do something for BFG) are Bob, Ray and Nate. They have been appointed by GW (Jervis I assume) to be caretakers of BFG, this happened shortly after Armada was released. FAQ 1.5 was their first main work (the old FAQ).
The old HA: Andy Chambers, Jervis and Matt O'Keefe if I recall correctly.
The game functions, yes, true. And in the offcial rules there is one broken aspect and that is being called Eldar. The rules are just bad (and can be exploited by players, luckily BFG players tend to be quite cool).
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I've never had a problem with the eldar. Fighting them sometimes can be very frustrating but I've never felt that I didn't have a fair chance at winning. If I had to pick a broken aspect, or maybe just a mechanic that is unfun, I'd go for the 2+ save on the Necron fleet. You can set up the perfect attack and if he doesn't roll any ones its all for nothing. On the other hand you can play like a child and if he rolls lots of ones he'd most likely lose. I guess everyone's milage will vary. I think that a lot of a person view as to the flaws of the game will come down which fleets you normally play against and how good those people are at the game.
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I think that a lot of a person view as to the flaws of the game will come down which fleets you normally play against and how good those people are at the game.
I think that is quite unfair. That assumes people just don't like being beaten by an opponent who happens to be better than them, so they want to debuff their fleet's list. So the flaws you pointed out in the 2010 rules are really just from you not liking a fleet you play against regularly from an opponent who is better than you at the game?
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I've never had a problem with the eldar. Fighting them sometimes can be very frustrating but I've never felt that I didn't have a fair chance at winning. If I had to pick a broken aspect, or maybe just a mechanic that is unfun, I'd go for the 2+ save on the Necron fleet. You can set up the perfect attack and if he doesn't roll any ones its all for nothing. On the other hand you can play like a child and if he rolls lots of ones he'd most likely lose. I guess everyone's milage will vary. I think that a lot of a person view as to the flaws of the game will come down which fleets you normally play against and how good those people are at the game.
Okay,
Eldar official rules.
1] Move, Attack, Disengage
surprise attack or similar. 750 vs 1500pts
Turn 1 movement: Eldar on board
Turn 1 shooting: Eldar destroy ship(s)
Turn 1 ordnance phase: Eldar mop up if shooting wasn't succesfull or destroy more.
Turn 1 end of ordnance phase: Eldar move fleet of table.
Opponent nets 75vps, Eldar net destroyed vessels (> 150).
A daft Eldar win with no play for opponent. See, no cool player would do that but Eldar rules make it possible.
2] The Volandum Manouevre
Lock on with Hemlocks (boom boom Pulsars!) (lock on = cannot turn in movement + ordnance phase)
Fire torpedoes (str2) at Hemlock squadron.
Hemlocks Brace for impact!
BFI replaces Lock On. Hemlocks may turn and move at end of ordnance phase.
Totally gittish but rules allow it.
3] Necrons are blamed for Eldar losses.
Wrong, Eldar loose because of Eldar rules.
4] Fluff
Wraithbone is stronger then 4+.
The most advanced race has no protection against space debris. Being arrogant is one thing, being a stupid race another.
The most advanced race has almost no protection vs the most common enemy weapon (weapon batteries). 1 dice from a mon-keigh ship can kill thousands of a dying race @30.000 km away. 1 dice on a 50% chance.
Again, a dying race may be arrogant, but stupid?
The problem with Eldar rules is not that they are too strong or to weak (funny enough they are too weak and too strong combined!) but that they are broken/badly written.
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think that is quite unfair. That assumes people just don't like being beaten by an opponent who happens to be better than them, so they want to debuff their fleet's list. So the flaws you pointed out in the 2010 rules are really just from you not liking a fleet you play against regularly from an opponent who is better than you at the game?
I think we are all a product of our environment. For instance I think the ork clans list is crap and believe its self evident, however, I remember a long ago post someone was claiming it was broken powerful. I can't see it but maybe the guys experience make it seem that way to him. Maybe he's actually right and there is some combo I am not seeing. I'm not saying people are crying about being beaten but what I am saying is that people will decide using their various experiences what they believe to be fair and what they believe to be overpowered. This will be for the most part different for everyone. Afteriamagedan I guess you must play nids since your icon seems niddy. I believe that with their biomorphs Nids are one of the top three fleets in power. Without them they drop to the lower middle of the pack. Apparently the HA thought that the biomorphs were overpowered and disallowed them unless everyone agrees. So what I am saying is I don't think people are intentionally trying to debuff their buddy's fleet what I am saying is that due to their various experiences people are trying to "balance" percieved flaws and thats going to be shades of grey and different for every person.
Horizon, that eldar trick #1 is very sneaky. I've never come across it as I mostly play fleet engagements. My experiences color my view. If we are going to talk about scenerios the Eldar would be at a disadvantage in a planetary assault or exterminatus for instance. Maybe not an auto-loss like this scenerio but the eldar would be hard pressed to get one of their cruisers to a heavily defended planet. In a campaign situation it would mostly balance out I think. A lot of races have advantages or disadvantages while playing scenerios. Try stopping Necrons from virus bombing your world.
Number 2 does not trouble me. If an eldar player can set up this attack and ensure a torpedo hits him while locking on and being in the right place to kill something, he deserves to scoot away. This isn't something you can just pull out of a hat and do. The other guy will be able to see this coming and take action to prevent it or suffer as he should.
Number 3. I'm kinda leaning towards Necrons being more broken honestly. With reactionless drives they pretty much trump the MsM system which is how the eldar survive. Is it Msm or is it Reactionless drives thats the badly written rule? Maybe both?
Number 4. I do find that strange. Often the fluff and the rules don't have a lot in common. Space marine boarding should be far more more out of control if you read the fluff. Why do the craftworlds not have a voidstalker or build decent escorts? Why are the SM in 40K now friends with Zenos scum? The fluff tends to change to fit the game rather than the other way around.
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Believe me, I know that fully allowed biomorphs do break the nid list and make them too powerful. Adepticon had to put a rule in place to make up for it and I believe it works out well. No biomorphs drops the nids down too much. So the decision was made. Just claiming that people are balancing fleets based on perceived flaws applies to the HA and the designers from the beginning as well. I know you haven't been on these boards for all that long but the BFG:R effort has been a whole bunch of work over years and I believe people are not just advocating for their own preferred fleet to be the best. Yes, it may be shades of grey for every person, but having the group debate and challenge and calculate and vote is the best shot at balance we have at this point.
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I actually don't believe the nids were overpowered fully biomorphed, I said that they were powerful. I think that they were fine just the way they were. I agree that without biomorphs they are very much weaker.
What is the adepticon rule for Nid biomorphs by the way? Let in some or are some combos not allowed?
It all depends on what people and how many are on the committee. Sure if you had 1000 people anyones quirks would disappear under all the average peoples views but you don't have that many so anyone with strong opinions will unduly influence any outcome whether they know what they are talking about or not.
I'm not following closely so I am unsure exactly how many people are working on any one fleet list but it seems from casual viewing to be like max five per list with maybe some lurkers. One guy with strange views will wack out your balance.
The HA is working with their own shades of grey, that is true. However, those people are associated with the people who designed the game. Maybe they learned the game from andy chambers. Played with the original designers. Their greys may be less grey than most. Certainly less grey than "anybody on the internet who wants to help". Still I think they should not have nerfed the poor nids.
I was on the original specialist games boards back in the day. I have missed the BFG-R its true but I was around for the MMS eldar. (I was against it) I've been playing BFG regularly since about 2000. I intend to attend the adepticon tourney this year and win ;D Maybe I will see you there.
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the rule that we have in place is that you can have your three different types but you can apply each biomorph only once.
We had a couple years in a row where the 14/6 hive ships were steamrolling everything in sight.
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Unseelieed,
it is under msm Eldar rules that Eldar tend to dominate a fleet scenario like escalating engagement. And I do think you need to factor in all kind of scenarios. Small or Big.
And a well played Eldar fleet will still deliver in planetary assault or exterminatus.
True, Necrons will excel at that last one a lot.
And I still do think fluff needs to be balance with rules, otherwise we can ditch all and everything background wise (exaggarating here). If rules cannot be translated like the Marines you describe, then, yes, fluff should be adapted in a small way. Marines working with xenos is a minor change all things regarded because a lot of fan writers made such stories before. ;)
And, yeah, MMS had opponents. And first time players I will always tell to use official rules first and only pick MMS if they do not like the official rules.
I do have a mail from Bob Henderson (HA) though that if they had ever gotten the option to make a real BFG 2.0 Eldar MMS would be the Eldar rules they picked. :)
But that will never ever happen now, lol.
So we pick the rules we like most with our friends when playing and adapt to the rules when someone else is hosting a tournament (because adapeticon also adds/quirks rules). Right? :)
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now. if someone can come up with a REALLY good fluff/background for why a particular combination they want to use should have a different ally rating than we have given them, we will probably take a look at that on a case by case basis.
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Adapting to the rules is what happens with any GW games system anywhere. For instance 40k around here some people allow forgeworld, some don't some are rolling with the new suppliments, some have painting scores etc. All this is fine as long as its clear from the beginning what is allowed. People can make an educated choice then to attend or not to attend depending upon what they like or don't like.
There is a lot less of that in BFG as official rules plus FAQ seems to be more standard and there aren't as many choices as to tourneys to attend but still every tourney is going to have its quirks. This is all fine and good as long as the quirks are listed before hand so everybody knows what they are getting into and can decide if they want to attend or not. A little quirkiness can add some spice. Too much and you're not playing the same game.
Over all I think having fewer quirks is better. Look at the condition of 40k now. Its fractured. Too many quirks. BFG doesn't have enough players to work fractured. Right now we use official rule plus FAQ (plus small quirks) for every tournament I can think of. Playing what you want to, how you want to at home with your friends is everyones right. You can play dressed up as your favorite BFG character if you want. I would if I had a costume. ;) If you want to play against strangers in a tournament setting, however, I think the more standard you can get the better and smoother things will go. No one wants to fly all the way to adepticon and find out the BFG isn't real BFG but fanBFG.
The fluff really does drive the hobby. GW has a lot of problems with their business methods, pricing etc but their setting and background is what really pulls us in and holds us here year after year. Problem is there is so much fluff and it keeps changing. For every story you can name where the SM work hand in hand with the Xenos there are others where they recite the litanys of hate against them and slaughter them. I don't like the SM cohabitating with Xenos and you don't like eggshell wraithbone. Nothing to be done about it.
That is interesting about the HA thinking about using MMS. If they had I would have become "official" and everyone would be playing it. As you say it will never happen now.
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Personally, I don't see what's all so wrong about just porting the 40k ally chart into BFG, as that's the simplest way to do it, as well as fit most fluff best (I think). Here's my take on it:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/bfgallies.jpg)
The extra perk? If people want to use a double fleet, it must be escorts only, which pushes the idea of a "required number of escorts". Something I nominally disagree with naturally, but there ya go.
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As SeaHawk stated we are incorporatijng the 40k Allies matrix with a concentration on Leadership and the way it works with allies as follows
ALLIES MATRIX CHANGES
GREEN=Trusted: Leadership as is normal for the allied fleet. Regular leadership + the special ability.
YELLOW=Necessity: Regular leadership
ORANGE=Distrusted: Will have a die roll -1 of leadership so will roll 1-5 on the chart.
RED=Hostile: Will have the 1-5 roll on the chart and then -1 on their leadership beyond that AND they will be subject
to the Reserve Fleets rules as if you were fighting against Chaos in the rules in the Armada Book on page 29 of the dead tree copy.
Restrictions & Notes:
clarification that will be made with respect to Tau working with Chaos and vice versa. The Chaos contingent may NOT contain a Daemonship if you wish to have them allied with Tau.
Auxiliary Flotilla cannot be from a secondary fleet list of the same race (IE different sector of Imperial Navy allying together. But Imperial Navy could have an Adeptus Mechanicus auxiliary)
Dark Eldar ships in the Auxiliary Flotilla are not allowed to have Mimic Engines.
Tyranid Ships are not allowed to be part of an Auxiliary Flotilla.
However Tyranid fleets may have an Auxiliary Flotilla as those ships would be controlled by a Genestealer Cult i.e Tranid hive mind shennanigans.
Ordo Hereticus Inquisitior Lord allows for Admech, Inquisition, Imperials, Rogue Trader and Space Marines as Green allies.
Ordo Xenos Inquisitior Lord allows for any one alien race to be yellow. *except nids
Ordo Malleus Inquisitior Lord allows for Chaos as green allies.
Battlefleet Armageddon fleets count as being both Imperial Navy and Space Marines as native fleet.
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Curious as to the thinking behind matrix being unequal depending upon the main fleet. For instance for some reason Chaos Main is best buds with Eldar(which seem strange by the way) while Eldar main is only allies of necessity with Chaos. Necrons main are best buds with Chaos but Chaos Main is Hostile to Crons. Whats the reasoning behind it?
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I sincerely hope that's not the final chart, as it makes no sense.
Chaos should never ally with eldar or necrons, not be trusted allies!
Inquisition and rt fleets don't even exist (unless they're a very hidden ruleset somewhere).
I think it needs a complete overhaul. The allies interactions aren't even really much, if any detriment. Please give my ideas some consideration before making a final decision.
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It does seem a little quirky. Its weird that the only blacked out square is Ad mech not being allowed to ally with chao or DE? Why DE?? Admech has their flip side the Dark Mechanicus so it would make more sense to have them distrusted. Loyal Mechanicus would never ally with chaos but Dark would be best buds so that leaves you in the middle which is distrusted. Maybe some lines for Dark Mechanicus, Renegade IN, evil inquisitors, etc should be added? Maybe thats something that can be cleared before hand if you happen to have a Dark Mechanicus fleet or Renegade IN? The chart doesn't actually take into account the 6th ed new everyone is best buddies fluff it seems but it still is a little strange even from what I remember of the older fluff.
I was planning on bringing a chaos fleet to adepticon and my only best bud is eldar. Twist my arm. Maybe I will be able to pull off the The Volandum Manouevre. ;) Apparently the farseer has forseen that an escort squadron of hemlocks has to help some spikey evil guys for the good of Eldar everywhere.
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Were still working out the kinks here,that why we posted them. key is to keep pace on the idea of Allies, Special auxiliary fleet rules were trying to have and even amount of Green, Yellows, and orange across for each main fleet. There will obviously be fleet combos that will be better fluff wise, and others either for shenanigans, or space madness!
We did look at the 40k allies matrix as I really do still play 40k. there are a couple issues I think with porting over directly from it, mainly that almost everybody can have some form of parring. and then there are it's problems Example: sister of Battle rather trusting Eldar at the same level they trust Black Templar or Blood Angels. Point bieng it's a work in progress and we want your input it's the first time were doing this and anything you wanna se helps, we should focus on whats already presented and pick out what we like
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Seahawk, your chart looks like it makes much more sense than ours. We're going to use yours with slight modifications. Those being that the Tyranids can bring in Desperate Allies from most fleets to represent Genestealer Cults taking over the commanders of these ships. Also the Tyranid/Tyranid ally will be That one of the pair must be a Vanguard Fleet.
It would also make sense that on the Desperate Allies that while your "Animosity" idea looks like a good idea, I still like the thought that these ships could very well fully betray you like the IN run Chaos ships in the Reserve Fleet.
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Curious as to the thinking behind matrix being unequal depending upon the main fleet.
The reasoning behind my proposal of asymmetrical allies is because sometimes that's just the way it is. For example, if the Tyranids ask for your help, it's more likely because they want your help so they can eat someone else. And you can always shoot them in the back at key points in the battle, or mop up the remainder afterwards. If you invite Tyranids anywhere, they will eat you.
Similarly, most of the Imperium can be summoned by an Inquisitor, but who in their right minds would invite an Inquisitor?
Not all friendships are equal, especially when it comes to people that still want to kill each other after the immediate threat passes.
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Seahawk's list plus the nid bit from LG makes most sense if you want to use such a chart.
@ unseelied, please do that manoeuvre! ;D
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I also thought about, for the fail on a 1 rule, that whoever fails must direct half their shooting at the allied ship/squadron.
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Like Abbadon's "You Have Failed Me for the Last Time"?
Ok. Here's an even better idea, based upon the WFB Orc Animosity. Maybe increase the check range to 20cm?
Test. On a 1 something happens.
1: Blast Em! Follow rules for Abbadon's "You Have Failed Me for the Last Time" rule
2-5: Watch Em: Do nothing like Seahawk's chart states:
6: We'll Show Em How It's Done: Head at full speed towards nearest enemy squadron and attempt to board. If beyond normal movement range for a direct move and enemy ships are in a line where an All Ahead Full could potentially reach the ship, The ship automatically succeeds in an All Ahead Full special order.
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"Admiral Piet'! err I mean slave thingy!
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Not all friendships are equal, especially when it comes to people that still want to kill each other after the immediate threat passes.
Agreed.
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From a purely gaming perspective, no fluff, the chart raptor put up actually has a more even spread of allies.
Seahawks chart,while making a lot more sense fluffwise, really bones some groups as they don't get any best friends. Orks and Chaos don't have friends :( Tau on the other hand are friends with everyone. I think for a fair matchup a little fluff is going to have to be reinvented so that everyone can get at least one best friend and some people may have to be suddenly distrustful of the particular Tau in this sector of space, the Backstabby Sept.
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As I said before, a good piece of fluff/story submitted to us before the tournament could give you an upgrade of status.
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I think the desperate allies thing is a little too harsh. Who is going to bring them if they can't take mission objectives and may go all crazy on a bad roll? No one takes them in 40k so why would they here? I liked the earlier subtract leadership thing better. Makes them less good but not awful. The point of the allies thing is to add spice so why not at least make the more exotic spices at least viable?
Maybe if they fail their roll rather than just sitting there they have to turn and run away. More likely to keep them alive but still being a large downside to the overall plan. I'd be afraid that I'd roll a one and those guys would stupidly get themselves killed and lose me the game. How about just not being able to shoot or launch ord that turn? A downside but not a game losing one. Might as well just simplify the chart and make them come the apoc otherwise.
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note. in order to make the roll on the second chart you have to roll a 1 on the initial check. so the "You have failed me for the last time" and "We'll show em" will only have a 1/36 probability chance each.
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whoops, I'm a ninny. I missed a very important part of that whole thing. You have to be within 15cm for this stuff to happen. I thought you just tested at the beginning of every turn. Just don't go within 15cm and then the only downside are no re-rolls and no mission objectives. OK not so bad really then. Most likely at 250pt its going to be escorts or a single ship so it will be fairly easy to keep them away from their friends and one ship not "scoring" or whatever it does probabally isn't going to be huge either.
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no. this is just LIKE Warhammer Fantasy Orc Animosity. It's not overly universal like it.
\
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Hey all,
Have a good warp jump into 2014!
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May the Schwartz be with you all.
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whoops, I'm a ninny. I missed a very important part of that whole thing.
;)
There ya go! It's really not so bad.
It really is a direct port of rules straight from 40k. I'd be fine with some modifications, but really it's pretty well functional.
The game isn't really fair, and not all races have access to the same things. Otherwise, everyone would have MSM rules, bombardment cannon, inertialess drives, guided torpedoes, and 6+ armor. :P
Likewise, not all races have the same friends as everyone else. That being said, I made some changes based on the suggestions here.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/bfgallies1-1.jpg)
Tyranids have a few more "allies", to represent genestealer cults that have infiltrated Imperial ships, and the fact that Eldar will sometimes shadow the fleets to follow their own interests. I considered Orks as well, but they're too rambunctious and would just fight them.
I also modified a few others to represent stuff that happens in fluffy awesomeness.
At any rate, catch you on the flip side!
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Wait, all the Tyranids still have red for Imperials. Not that it matters all that much to me in the personally.
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Whoops, I'll fix that! Meant it to be blue.
Done. I'm going with only IN, because IN crews are "corruptible", as it were, being mainly indentured crews and whatnot.
Space Marines know the Tyranid threat, and would never surrender a vessel or work alongside, unless it was like an Inquisition shadow corvette or something, which isn't represented by the rules yet anyway. So, no SM. Same would go for AM.
Still, just having any other artificial vessels would be quite beneficial to Tyranids. The ability to take a cruiser, or even escorts of any of the allowed fleets could change tactics quite a bit.
For that matter, I'm still not totally sure on the AM fleet. I'm thinking they may be more willing to ally to the Tau to acquire technology or something, but then that's not their thing. They're so insular and looking for human tech, so I don't know. Opinions! About any of it, for that matter.
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Done. I'm going with only IN, because IN crews are "corruptible", as it were, being mainly indentured crews and whatnot.
Space Marines know the Tyranid threat, and would never surrender a vessel or work alongside, unless it was like an Inquisition shadow corvette or something, which isn't represented by the rules yet anyway. So, no SM. Same would go for AM.
Agree totally.
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The rogue traders, they are in the 2010 FAQ, could be best buddies with everyone but nids. Depending upon what kind of business they are in and what that is, they could be dealing with all types of strangeness. Some would be loyal to the imperium and others would just be about who is giving them the money. Show me the money! This way everyone could get a best bud, not that the rogue trader fleet options are amazing or anything. I guess Xenos escorts would be pretty good at 250pts. Plus they aren't represented on the chart but are still a legal fleet list. Inquisition also is not on the chart. I don't think a lot of people play those two fleets but for the sake of completeness they probabally should be included. I guess they could just be rolled into imperial or chaos also but it should be spelled out if thats what going to happen.
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in the original list I had them as being able to battle brothers with everyone except for nids.
Count them as that. Battle Brothers with everyone except for Necrons and Tyranids. Tyranids unallowed, Necrons not sure how we should handle them. Sector allies for Rogue Traders.
Take a look at the Inquisition in Raptor's latest list and we'll convert it to the new version.
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With the new cron fluff with all their dynasties and such I can see an honorable dynasty getting involved with legitimate deals with a trader. Maybe they are looking for some of their own lost aerotech or maybe its just information about their various enemies. It could be raw materials to build or repair Necron stuff. If the eldar would have dealings with rogue traders why not the Necrons? I don't see any fluff reason not to include them.
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I haven't played 40k itself since very late 4e so I don't know much about the new fluff so if the new fluff supports Rogue Traders working with Necrons then I'm all for it.
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Perhaps Rogue Traders should have a slightly different set of allies - all yellow [allies of convenience] ('cept nids). Of course, this shouldn't necessarily be reciprocal. Also, I think nobody should be able to take nids as allies. Nids can bring allies, but nobody can bring nids (aimed at seahawk's list).
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Islacrusez. that's the EXACT intent. NOBODY will be able to bring Nid Allies except for Nid Hive fleet bringing Nid Vanguard Fleet.
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Ah, there it is.
Okay, I can see the merit of one-way allies.
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which is what we were trying to do with the original chart. Yours is much better in layout. We're stealing it and tweaking it slightly.
That being said, once we manage to get this all hashed out. I'd like to submit it to the general BFG playing public as a possible universal tournament rules set.
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The only thing that sticks out for me are the Mechanicus not being able to work with Chaos. Unless I am mistaken there is a whole Dark Mechanicus that works with chaos just like the normal mechanicus works with the Imperium. Read Dark Mechanicus or that very cool series about the Night lords. There is a great mechanicus guy in that night lords series.
If the Imperial Mechanicus would have any huge issues it would be with the Necrons. Alien Tech is considered to be an abomination and so Necrons are a race made completely out of of abomination. Because of the Dark Mechanicus I'd say mechanicus should be at least yellow with chaos. Only because of the Dark Mechanicus would I say that the Mechanicus would work with Necrons at all.
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Are the Dark Mechanicus represented in the fleet list? If not, do they actually have the same ships and same tech in the fluff?
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The DM are not represented in any fleet list. Their main change from the regular M as far as I know is that they a pretty much willing to go to any extreme for new tech rather than just sticking with tried and true STC. This would include putting daemons inside machines and such. I am not sure if that would really effect their ships enough to make any difference in game. Ships are vast and only the most extreme changes are going to effect one. I am kinda thinking it would be like the different SM chapters to some extent where there differences in the scale of BFG are not enough to make any changes to the ships each chapter fields.
On the other hand an arguement could be made in the other direction, that sticking daemons in stuff would give them different powers. However, there isn't, as far as I know, any void war related fluff that pertains to DM so there is no real way to tell. They exist and make stuff for the forces of Chaos. Half the mechanicus left to join chaos in the heresy. They probabally took their ships with them. Thats what we know.
Other factions not represented in the BFG rules are represented using counts as fleets. Gene stealer cults for instance in this adepticon chart. The main one of interest here would be a renegade Imperial fleet. A Imperial Navy fleet that has fallen from the emperors light can ally with chaos in the adepticon list but just uses their normal stats and such. I think that is the STC for a DM fleet. Just let them ally with chaos. They could be yellow since no one really trusts chaos but they could be green as well since they build and fix everything chaos owns. Got to be fairly trusted for that.
If it was for a one-off tourney then skipping the DM would be fine but I think that if you are planning on making some kind of standard tourney template( STT ) for universal use then I think that banning them from being allies with chaos makes no sense. Its quirky, strange and letting them ally with chaos doesn't really get them any advantages they didn't already have since they can already ally with IN who for the most part use almost the same ships.
These are the questions we have to ask. Why can't the Dark Mechanicus ally with Chaos? Why can't the Dark Mechanicus be represented using he normal Mechanicus list?
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The Admech list represents the newest most up to date of the Imperiums ships. I don't think thats really a great fleet to represent the DM with. Actually I would probably go with a standard Chaos list with maybe a PK leading it.
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If you want them to be allied, you'll have to stop calling them Adeptus Mechanicus in the listing >.>
On a similar note, especially based on your chaos=IN and dmech=admech, why bother with a chaos list at all? Just listing them as "human fleet" and allowing both lists to be used combined would be a better representation of the renegade side of things, no? It would be, actually, but you'd lose a lot of the point.
In a way that is a bit different from allowing admech to be dmech, as allowing it adds flavour rather than removes it... Humm. Personally I think that admech!=dmech, and they should get their own list, or at least their own gifts.
Besides, if you really want the admech to be dmech in this one-off set of rules, you can present your case of fluff to the emperor and he'll say yay or nay based on how convincing you are. Agreed that it could be an issue if the ruleset were to be presented as a standard.
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Hi there Captains, we've made a couple of changes based on suggestions. bnelow review before we start finalizing everything if you please
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Did anything change? :o
AM should be Allies of Convenience with Rogue Traders.
Chaos should NEVER be able to take Eldar as Battle Brothers. Ever. Chaos should be able to take Dark Eldar as Allies of Convenience or Desperate Allies.
Eldar should not be able to take Chaos as allies in any way whatsoever, and should be able to take Inquisition, Imperial Navy, Tau, and Space Marines as Allies of Convenience, or possibly Desperate Allies.
Inquisition should be able to take Eldar as Desperate Allies.
Imperial Navy should be able to take Tau as Allies of Convenience.
Necrons should not be able to take AM and Chaos as Battle Brothers (should be Allies of Convenience for AM, and Desperate or never for Chaos).
Orks should not be able to take Space Marines as allies at all, and not Imperial Navy as BB (only Desperate). Orks should be able to take both Eldars and Necrons as Desperate Allies.
Rogue Traders should not be able to take everything as Battle Brothers. Allies of Convenience, yes.
Space Marines should be able to take Imperial Navy as Battle Brothers, and Tau and Eldar as Allies of Convenience.
Tau should be able to take Dark Eldar as Desperate Allies; Space Marines and Imperial Navy as Allies of Convenience, and Eldar as Battle Brothers.
Tyranids should be able to take Chaos, Dark Eldar, Eldar, and Imperial Navy as Desperate Allies.
Everything should be able to take themselves as Sector Allies. That was the point of introducing the concept, really.
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Did anything change? :o
AM should be Allies of Convenience with Rogue Traders.
Chaos should NEVER be able to take Eldar as Battle Brothers. Ever. Chaos should be able to take Dark Eldar as Allies of Convenience or Desperate Allies.
Eldar should not be able to take Chaos as allies in any way whatsoever, and should be able to take Inquisition, Imperial Navy, Tau, and Space Marines as Allies of Convenience, or possibly Desperate Allies.
Inquisition should be able to take Eldar as Desperate Allies.
Imperial Navy should be able to take Tau as Allies of Convenience.
Necrons should not be able to take AM and Chaos as Battle Brothers (should be Allies of Convenience for AM, and Desperate or never for Chaos).
Orks should not be able to take Space Marines as allies at all, and not Imperial Navy as BB (only Desperate). Orks should be able to take both Eldars and Necrons as Desperate Allies.
Rogue Traders should not be able to take everything as Battle Brothers. Allies of Convenience, yes.
Space Marines should be able to take Imperial Navy as Battle Brothers, and Tau and Eldar as Allies of Convenience.
Tau should be able to take Dark Eldar as Desperate Allies; Space Marines and Imperial Navy as Allies of Convenience, and Eldar as Battle Brothers.
Tyranids should be able to take Chaos, Dark Eldar, Eldar, and Imperial Navy as Desperate Allies.
Everything should be able to take themselves as Sector Allies. That was the point of introducing the concept, really.
This.
:)
Although, somehow I feel about AdMech:
Dark Mechanicus: Chaos may use AdMech upgrades on Chaos vessels (aka using AdMech rules as allies)?
Necron: with the Machine God and all on Mars, perhaps necrons + admech (traitors) to be middle of the road?
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Agreed on most points, except that Necrons need some green, so if you take away the two it has, what alternative do you offer? Doubly agreed on RT getting all allies of convenience rather than all BB. Maybe AM should get RT as desperate allies (I don't imagine the AM being too keen on RT activities especially when it comes to trading tech).
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Do Necrons really need green allies though? Like I said before, not all races have friends.
Maybe rogue traders can be taken as green. The rest should be yellow or worse, and since chaos/warp is the Necrons ancient enemy, Chaos should not be BB.
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The Admech list represents the newest most up to date of the Imperiums ships. I don't think thats really a great fleet to represent the DM with. Actually I would probably go with a standard Chaos list with maybe a PK leading it.
I think that would be a very cool fleet. I dig on your vision of ancient ships being held together with sorcery. It makes a cool idea and visual. However, because there is a lack of any real background fluff on what DM fleets are like its just your vision of it and no more correct than mine.
I am seeing the DM as radicals pushing the boundaries. The various tech upgrades could be Xenos tech, could be daemonic tech or they could even just be good old fashioned inovation. Why couldn't they have new ships? Why couldn't they build new ships with new designs as they are no longer constrained to the dogma of the STC? Planets and Fleets are falling to chaos all the time and heading out to the eye of terror so they would have examples of new ships.
Another thing to think about is every explorator fleet ever mentioned is going to some god awful haunted place that no one goes to for a reason, looking for tech. Its like watching a horror movie. "Don't go into the basement Admech guys!". They always do and thats where the chaos is lurking. I'd say that explorator fleets getting their hands dirty in evil places far away from the Imperium are more at risk to be corrupted by chaos and turn to the dark side than any other imperial group. People are fine with the idea of an imperial fleet turning their coats and joining chaos. People are fine with the idea of entire space marine chapters turning their coats and joining chaos. People are saying its impossible for an explorator fleet to fall to chaos. It makes no sense.
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On a similar note, especially based on your chaos=IN and dmech=admech, why bother with a chaos list at all? Just listing them as "human fleet" and allowing both lists to be used combined would be a better representation of the renegade side of things, no? It would be, actually, but you'd lose a lot of the point.
Traitor IN is just regular IN rules wise. They only join chaos in a fluff sense. Yet they still get to join up with chaos fleet using the chart. I like your formula idea but its not chaos=IN its IN=Renegade IN, ADmech=DM. I basicly can just paint my ships evilly or nurgle them up and I gain something. How is that fair to someone with a DM fleet? Why do DM players have to prostrate themselves before the emperor to beg for something that plainly they should already have? If you look at the chart there are only two black squares that aren't nids. How does that make any sense? Is there fluff I don't know about? Could someone please explain it to me? Also why Dark Eldar?
If this was a one-off chart then who cares? I'm most likely the only person seeing this chart that actually has a Dark Mechanicus fleet and I'm not bringing them to Adepticon either as main or allies. Its for the children and the future. ;) If you are going to have a universal chart for the ages you shouldn't have nonsense on it for one. For two, the point of the chart is its supposed to add spice. Randomly just limiting the poor DM for no reason just goes against the whole point of the chart.
The power gamer in me wants to try out that eldar move by taking chao main with eldar allies no matter how much the fluff gods cry. I will collect their tears in a jar and refresh myself between games with it. ;D
The fluff guy in me is thinking that you should all just shoot for a one-off chart since you don't seem to read the same fluff as everyone else. Just rule with an iron fist and get it over with but don't expect everyone in the universe to accept the quirky chart.
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I can see that. I think we're going to make one last tweak to our chart for Adepticon and call it a wrap there and then in another thread we can start working on a universal allies chart for the future.
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I am seeing the DM as radicals pushing the boundaries. The various tech upgrades could be Xenos tech, could be daemonic tech or they could even just be good old fashioned inovation. Why couldn't they have new ships? Why couldn't they build new ships with new designs as they are no longer constrained to the dogma of the STC?
This is precisely why they cannot have AdMech ships.
People are fine with the idea of an imperial fleet turning their coats and joining chaos. People are fine with the idea of entire space marine chapters turning their coats and joining chaos. People are saying its impossible for an explorator fleet to fall to chaos. It makes no sense.
Imperial Navy are basically largely press-ganged ships, people who have been forced to go on these godforsaken ships and have a gun to their head to make sure they stay there. The officers might have a bit more discipline, being the ones doing the gun-holding and generally more loyal, but just like the rest of your average humans they can be turned.
Space Marines are a different story, that's canon and there's a lot of things we disagree with in there that we don't get to complain about.
AdMech? Another story altogether. AdMech don't "just turn", just like Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights don't just turn. The DM won't have access to the ships that the AM have, because they don't just turn up on their doorstep with a mutineer crew every few years, and because if they build or change something they get to break all the rules. To rephrase your own question, why in the world would DM end up with the heavily constrained ship designs of the AM when they don't have to follow any of the same rules?
How is that fair to someone with a DM fleet? Why do DM players have to prostrate themselves before the emperor to beg for something that plainly they should already have?
Because they don't have a fleet list? Because there are no rules that say you can have DM? Would it be ok to field Imperial Guard in a tournament but insist to be allowed to use the Chaos allies list because my entire army has turned to Chaos?
If you want to play DM, I think they should be represented properly, rather than just saying any AM can automatically be BB with Chaos.
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we can start working on a universal allies chart for the future.
That's what my own chart, and all the revisions I suggested for this one, are already for. A universal chart that makes sense fluffily while not being OTT rulesy. I really, really don't understand the original versions...
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actually seahawk, if you could tweak your chart just slightly, to allow Tyranids to take as desperate allies non Tyranid ships, we'll probably steal your chart (actually I had asked Raptor to take your chart and add a couple of our tweaks to it but he used our original chart instead ;))
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Did any actually look at allies bit in the FAQ 2010?
I mean... the FAQ is being used at Adepticon. ::)
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This is precisely why they cannot have AdMech ships
Sure. In a perfect world they would have there own ruleset. As it stands DM don't have one and their cousins the AM do and it happens to have tech upgrades and all the things I believe a DM fleet should have. Why should they have access to the best IN ships? Becauses that ruleset is the best out of what is available to represent them. Perfect? Nope, but it is the best fit out of the options available.
Imperial Navy are basically largely press-ganged ships, people who have been forced to go on these godforsaken ships and have a gun to their head to make sure they stay there. The officers might have a bit more discipline, being the ones doing the gun-holding and generally more loyal, but just like the rest of your average humans they can be turned.
Its the same with the AM. The ships are run by press ganged scum. Admech build all the ships and they all run the same way. Its in the Lords of Mars series, maybe priests of mars. The AM despite being all about machiney are still humans with human weaknesses and desires. Not for the flesh so much but for power and knowledge they will do quite a bit. They aren't space marines and even the mighty space marines fall.
AdMech? Another story altogether. AdMech don't "just turn", just like Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights don't just turn.
Half the admech went over to chaos during the heresy. Thats a terrible record. I'd have to disagree that they couldn't "just turn". The AM is plagued with cults that do various forbidden tech or follow strange interpretations of strict cannon. Its only a short step from cult ridden to out right heresy. There is a story featuring grey knights who go purge a forgeworld that got cut off by warpstorms and then fell to chaos. I think its called Dark Mechanicus. An entire forgeworld falls to chaos in that book. Anyway I believe it more than possible, its probable that an explorator fleet could fall to chaos and bring their ships. Thats the fluff reason for a DM fleet using the Am list. I feel the best possible representation of an AM fleet, even a fallen one, is the Admech list. Thats the practical reason.
If I say I have fallen IN fleet I can ally it with chaos. Its exactly the same as me saying I have a fallen AM fleet but for some reason I can't ally it with chaos. Either let the DM have their due or stop the IN from getting it. Just looking for a fair deal here or at least a reasonable explanation.
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So I'm compilingthe new data sheet and I read Desperate Allies: As for Allies of Convenience, but ships from the Allied Fleet cannot achieve mission objectives.
Additionally, at the start of your turn, roll a D6 for each ship/squadron within 15cm of a Desperate Ally ship/squadron:
on a 1, that ship/squadron cannot turn, fire, or launch ordnance as they watch for betrayal.
so would that allow you to take special orders then even when watching for betrayal
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ALSO i THINK there is a slight issue with the desprqte allies thing to them not at least tryingo move outta of the way from say a planet or astroid field, even Nid fleet when they go on instinctive behaviour have rules to avoid them from doing that it needs to be change to
Desperate Allies: As for Allies of Convenience, but ships from the Allied Fleet cannot achieve mission objectives.
Additionally, at the start of your turn, roll a D6 for each ship/squadron within 15cm of a Desperate Ally ship/squadron:
on a 1, that ship/squadron cannot turn, fire, or launch ordnance as they watch for betrayal. EXCEPTION: If this would cause the ship to collide with or move into terrain, it may turn as normal to avoid it
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No special orders other than BFI.
While I wrote no turns and I meant no turns (even for terrain; betrayal comes at a cost!), in the end it's up to you guys.
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While I wrote no turns and I meant no turns (even for terrain; betrayal comes at a cost!), in the end it's up to you guys.
How is that realistic? I don't get it...
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While I wrote no turns and I meant no turns (even for terrain; betrayal comes at a cost!), in the end it's up to you guys.
How is that realistic? I don't get it...
Yeah, I'm not liking that. Maybe...
Paranoid ship cannot end movement turn with the suspect out of fire arc (ie, behind you, or on a side suffering damaged weapon)
Suspect ship must move before the paranoid ship.
Suspect ship must fire before the paranoid ship.
Suspect ship is treated as priority target for purposes of fire allocation (any weapon that has the suspect in its fire arc must make a leadership test to ignore target), though it doesn't have to fire at it if it fails.
Not sure if that has enough effect?
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I think the Seahawk's idea actually is going to work out just fine. I'm going to be dictatorial here and keep that for the 2-5 result on the "we don't like them" roll.
So I have now taken the chart that Andrew sent to me as an idea as it seems to be a happy compromise between Seahawk's and my original chart. This will be the chart we use. I have made slight tweaks to the chart to fix the rules I was intending to work into the chart.
Here is the chart as will be submitted to the Adepticon PDF maker later today when all the rules we are working on get compiled and sent off.
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Wow, that document is jacked up. Any way to make it more legible?
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While I wrote no turns and I meant no turns (even for terrain; betrayal comes at a cost!), in the end it's up to you guys.
How is that realistic? I don't get it...
It's supposed to represent a variety of ship actions, like:
- Doesn't know whether to turn away and present rear only to get shot, or turn toward and show as an aggressive act.
- Crew frozen by inaction as gossip spreads that their ally might turn against them (or not).
- A showdown of who has more chutzpa, one upping and so forth, like a big ol' game of chicken.
My only issue with the chart is that some people might not know what "you have failed me for the last time" means. A simple explanation of "must direct half of their total weapons in that arc against that Desperate Ally" might be easier.
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derp. forgot to put in half the sentence. There is supposed to be "from Abbadon's rules in Armada" there.
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When I open the chart its all messed up. Could you just post up the final rules here as half of them are cut off and can't be read?
So chaos can ally with both SM and IN but not Admech? Chaos can't ally with Admech but Admech can ally with chao? So strange and quirky. No one can say I didn't champion the cause of the Dark Mechanicus. At least this chart is done anyway and everyone can find somebody to ally with.
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ok. the pdf export didn't work well. pm me with an email address and I can send you the excel spreadsheet directly so people can see it.
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I think you shouldn't reference "you have failed me for the last time" at all, now that I've reread it.
First, there will be confusion over Abaddon's reroll. Next, the Desperate Ally should not get +1 Ld for being shot at!
I think it'd be better if entirely replaced with: "This ship must direct half of its available Firepower and Lance strength against the nearest Desperate Ally. Resolve the attack as normal."
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Just a note, it's an 11% chance to get the Watch 'em result.
It's supposed to represent a variety of ship actions, like:
- Doesn't know whether to turn away and present rear only to get shot, or turn toward and show as an aggressive act.
- Crew frozen by inaction as gossip spreads that their ally might turn against them (or not).
These are both represented rather nicely by my alternate suggestion - just because you don't want to present rear doesn't mean you wouldn't turn at all. If you Titanic into an asteroid because you're too busy staring at another ship's thrusters, you're an idiot, and shouldn't be in charge of anything - I wouldn't trust you with a stapler. My suggestion is that the paranoid ship must be able to direct fire on the suspect ship until that ship is no longer able to betray you (that turn).
- A showdown of who has more chutzpa, one upping and so forth, like a big ol' game of chicken.
And crashing your 5km long battleship and getting yourself and your entire fleet killed makes you cooler how exactly? Besides, the one-upping is already represented by a result of 6 on the chart. These four results should be used to represent fear and paranoia only.
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Fair enough.
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I have questions about fleet restrictions and the allies.
Can you take a ship like a strike cruiser with the frontal bombardment cannon upgrade with out another strike cruiser of the normal configuration for instance? I still believe certain IN light cruisers are limited in such a way as well. Endeavors maybe?
Can you take fleet leadership? Could I take a master of the fleet and five hunters from the segmentum solar list?
Can you take 5 Xenos escorts from the rogue trader list with out taking any rogue trader ships?
What about Orks from the new clans list. Could one just take one squadron of escorts with a warlord and re-roll rather than two separate ones which is how I am reading it now?
What about race bonuses like Necron re-rolls? Would an allied fleet of necron raiders get a free re-roll?
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Ok. I'll email that to the guy who's going to put the rules pack into adepticon format now.
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I think the simplest thing to do is say:
Allied Fleet Rules:
- Ships may not take any upgrades.
- Does not need to take a fleet commander (though you can if you want).
- Inclusion criteria must be met (ie., points limits, other ships, etc).
- Racial/fleet special rules apply as normal.
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No on the strike cruiser.
On the IN Voss lights, I believe the 2010 FAQ removed the restriction.
No fleet commanders in the allied flotilla. They're too small.
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So there are allied fleet design rules already in place? Good.
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So what are exactly are the restrictions on the allied flotilla? No leadership is one. Are they limited to what you can legally bring to a 350pt game otherwise?
So I could field an explorer class ship for the tau but I couldn't field a hades for chaos because I couldn't bring two cruisers to open up my heavy cruiser slot.
What about allies of allies like the Kroot and Deimurg? Do they count as Tau or are they unavailable?
Is it limited to races or lists? Could a bring a SM strike cruiser with a Imperial cruiser from the segmentum solar list?
Unless I am missing something five Xenos excorts from the rogue trader list would be legal, accessable to nearly everyone and be a nice easy flotilla to make as you could use anything to represent alien ships. Right now, since I am bringing Chaos Main, I am thinking about those Xenos or six SM hunters for my flotilla. I could also cut a couple of points off the main fleet and go for one Necron cruiser. I'm not sure how important not being able to take mission objectives will be so its iffy to go for any of the others. Orks are not an option.
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kroot and demiurg are part of the Tau fleet.
Correct on no heavy/grand cruisers.
Remember. you only get one cruiser in this flotilla.
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I like that on the Acon website it says there's 2 tickets left, but it's sold out. It's a shame there wasn't more space for us...them new games is what's causin' all the trouble. ;)
I'm bringing Chaos too! Am debating on what kind of fleet though: cruiser heavy, or bruiser buddy. We'll find out! :D
I could also cut a couple of points off the main fleet and go for one Necron cruiser.
I hope that didn't stay an option, because otherwise what's the point of limiting how many points of allies in the first place.
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At one point all 10 tickets were sold. The guy in charge of the webcart did tell me of 2 drops. Email info@adepticon.org if you are interested in one of those other tickets. Depending on how many people end up on the waitlist we might be able to unlock some more table space.
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Na I already got mine, I'm set. ;)
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there is still 1 ticket left and I believe there is still one dropout go ahead and email we'll take care of it on our end once updated
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Nolan (necron guy) has yet to get his. Hopefully he will be able to soon.
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Orks are not an option.
They aren't for me either unless I can scrounge up ships.
However, taking 10 ram ships could be kinda fun.
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Not really an escort fan on the best of days. Orks would not be ideal for me even though they are best buds now with chaos. I missed that black library publication. I've never found ramships to be worth the points. Basicly its a ship that is designed to die. Kind of exciting to play with but always a let down. They always die with out doing enough damage. As a homebrew rule me and a buddy of mind decided to let them have a free 45 degree turn before they ram and they were still not good.
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Ah, the fickle underestimation of escorts. When will it ever go away? :)
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If you are coming to adepticon you can bring a metric ton of escorts and show me the secret ways. :)
I actually know a guy who runs a SM fleet with three strike cruisers and the rest escorts at 1500pts. His trick is to give you so many threats at once that you have to give some attention to them all rather than just concentrating on one squad at a time and destroying them. Its surprisingly difficult to deal with if played well but if he makes a single error he is finished as his escorts cannot survive any undivided attention.
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If you are coming to adepticon you can bring a metric ton of escorts and show me the secret ways. :)
I will be surprised if someone brings more escorts than myself.
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If you are coming to adepticon you can bring a metric ton of escorts and show me the secret ways. :)
I wish I could , but the distance is a bit to much....
I actually know a guy who runs a SM fleet with three strike cruisers and the rest escorts at 1500pts. His trick is to give you so many threats at once that you have to give some attention to them all rather than just concentrating on one squad at a time and destroying them. Its surprisingly difficult to deal with if played well but if he makes a single error he is finished as his escorts cannot survive any undivided attention.
So you already have an example of well played fleets with escorts. :)
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I will be surprised if someone brings more escorts than myself.
You are a nid player though. Thats a different kettle of fish. They actually have, in my opinion, bad cruisers so you are left with Hiveships and escorts both which are good. Before the biomorph removal I used to run two hiveships and all the rest escorts, mainly the vanguards with tenticles. I'd probabally go with two hives and even more escorts after the FAQ. One of the main reasons I think that they are good is you can bring 12 in a squadron and they are either fast and or cheap. That terrible Ork clans list has the ablity to have more ships in an escort squadron but they are neither fast nor cheap so I'm not seeing it as an effective list. Just can't bring the overwhelming numbers like you can with the Nids.
So you already have an example of well played fleets with escorts
Yes but why you would play a fleet that is so difficult to play well when you can just bring a mainly captial ship fleet which is easier to play well and more resilient, remains a mystery. Maybe some people like more of a challenge?
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Because of the fact a combination of cruisers and escorts is the best of all. Secondly, if you look at the background an Imperial sector will have about 75 warships, including escorts and cruisers! With the fleet list rule of 12 cruisers max this means there will be more escorts.
Furthermore, before faq 2010, the best Maine fleet was one barge plus escorts. Corsair Eldar thrive on escorts, nids are good with them. Ork escorts are pretty good with the klanz rules. Tau have excellent escorts. Chaos Infidels are a great asset to a Chaos fleet, Imperials have a good selection of good escorts. And even Craftworld Eldar have good escorts but that is the only fleet I would play without escorts due the fact Shadowhunters are only a last line of defence or for scouting, never in a battlefleet operating away from home.
The tactical added value of escorts is nothing to be sniffed at!
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We are going to have to agree to disagree on the escort thing. I will clarify my previous stance on escorts though. In fleets with good cruiser choices escorts really aren't nessessary and could actually weaken your fleet. In fleets without good cruiser choices then you really have no other options but escorts so they are good there. Certain fleets have to take them or have strange list building requirements so also it wouldn't be out of line to take them there either. There are certain escorts which I consider good but mostly its because of some special unusual feature that most escort do not have.
Chaos, Necrons, In, and Admech I normally run with out any escorts. If I do its just for looks or to purposely weaken my list to play against less skilled players. I do like the look of a fleet with a battleship, cruisers and some escorts and sometimes I decide to sacrifice a little power for purely asthetic reasons.
Nids and Eldar don't have good cruiser options and are really forced down the escort route. Their escorts are also pretty high quality or inexpensive. Holofields also give the escorts a huge boost as did biomorphs and extra large squadrons which made them a special case as far as escorts go.
Almost all ork ships are pretty bad. I am not sure the new clan rules make them any better. I can bring more bad ships. The lack of turrets and the 4+ armor makes them just too fragile for the cost. Maybe it could work but the general fleet building mechanic is really restrictive so I am staying away from that list. In the original list their main cruisers are bad and their escorts are as well so it almost doesn't matter which you bring.
Tau escorts are usable. Because of the strange fleet building restrictions( 1 hero= 1 explorer) you have to take escorts at 1500 to fill out the points. Orcas would be good if you didn't have to squadron their motherships to make a squadron of six ships. Defenders can't turn well but are better than that crappy light cruiser and you have to take something. If I could take a hero instead of tau escorts I would in a heartbeat but the list restricts me. Xenos escorts, if you are running allies with your tau, are a very good escort. One of the few I consider as good as a capital ship. Once again though, they can get two shields which makes them a special snowflake.
Dark eldar have to take escorts, their cruisers are fairly bad so escorts are the best they can do and even then they are a weak fleet except for one or two tricks they rely too heavily on.
CWE escorts are just so bad compared to normal eldar escorts it just seems like robbery.
Space Marines are the one fleet that a reasonable arguement can be made for escorts. Their crusier option, the strike cruiser, is fragile at six hits and doesn't really put out a lot of fire power for its cost. They are better now with the 2010 FAQ in that they can get an extra shield or upgrade to a larger bombardment cannon. Four hunters or one strike cruiser is a really good comparison and although I still think the capital ships have an edge its so minimal as to almost not matter. Having said all that, I don't think the SM is a top tier fleet by any means. The only fleet I can think of in which escorts are equal to their capital ship choices is second rate at best.
It is a shame you don't live closer to adepticon to show me the escort magic. I really would like to see it. The escort guy around here is the best I've seen using them but he has never beaten me. He starts out strong but eventually he gets ground down. His escorts just don't have the legs to carry on in any extended engagement and I think thats a fatal flaw. I'd love to be proved wrong about it. Maybe someone else will bring an escort heavy fleet (thats not nids or eldar) to adepticon.
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What if I take no biomorphs on escorts?
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We are going to have to agree to disagree on the escort thing.
Heh heh.
I will clarify my previous stance on escorts though. In fleets with good cruiser choices escorts really aren't nessessary and could actually weaken your fleet. In fleets without good cruiser choices then you really have no other options but escorts so they are good there. Certain fleets have to take them or have strange list building requirements so also it wouldn't be out of line to take them there either. There are certain escorts which I consider good but mostly its because of some special unusual feature that most escort do not have.
'kay.
Chaos, Necrons, In, and Admech I normally run with out any escorts. If I do its just for looks or to purposely weaken my list to play against less skilled players. I do like the look of a fleet with a battleship, cruisers and some escorts and sometimes I decide to sacrifice a little power for purely asthetic reasons.
My usual Chaos (Renegade) fleet runs 9 escorts, six Infidels and three Iconoclasts, the last ones have gained a deadly reputation in the battle when they crippled an Emperor Battleship in one salvo (Emperor was full health, with 3 shields down). :)
With the Necrons, I have no fleet for them yet, however I think the Shroud is poor ship and would use escorts instead.
My AdMech fleet also runs 9 escorts (Hunters & Gladii).
Nids and Eldar don't have good cruiser options and are really forced down the escort route. Their escorts are also pretty high quality or inexpensive. Holofields also give the escorts a huge boost as did biomorphs and extra large squadrons which made them a special case as far as escorts go.
While Corsair are escort king, the fleet does make good use of the incidental Eclipse and or Aurora, while the Void Stalker is a beast that always flies.
Almost all ork ships are pretty bad. I am not sure the new clan rules make them any better. I can bring more bad ships. The lack of turrets and the 4+ armor makes them just too fragile for the cost. Maybe it could work but the general fleet building mechanic is really restrictive so I am staying away from that list. In the original list their main cruisers are bad and their escorts are as well so it almost doesn't matter which you bring.
From experience the all out terror list is pretty strong (Deadshane won Adepticon with Orks) and the clanz list is pretty good with its big squadrons, which means better leadership, which means a frig load of torpedoes.... urgh...
Tau escorts are usable. Because of the strange fleet building restrictions( 1 hero= 1 explorer) you have to take escorts at 1500 to fill out the points. Orcas would be good if you didn't have to squadron their motherships to make a squadron of six ships. Defenders can't turn well but are better than that crappy light cruiser and you have to take something. If I could take a hero instead of tau escorts I would in a heartbeat but the list restricts me. Xenos escorts, if you are running allies with your tau, are a very good escort. One of the few I consider as good as a capital ship. Once again though, they can get two shields which makes them a special snowflake.
Funny, I usually run my escort squadrons in numbers of three, never six, sometimes five. I go for more targets for the enemy the choose between. :)
Dark eldar have to take escorts, their cruisers are fairly bad so escorts are the best they can do and even then they are a weak fleet except for one or two tricks they rely too heavily on.
Again, an Adepticon winner. Buy, yes, a one-trick pony fleet.
CWE escorts are just so bad compared to normal eldar escorts it just seems like robbery.
Disagree. These are fast and good ordnance killah's.
Space Marines are the one fleet that a reasonable arguement can be made for escorts. Their crusier option, the strike cruiser, is fragile at six hits and doesn't really put out a lot of fire power for its cost. They are better now with the 2010 FAQ in that they can get an extra shield or upgrade to a larger bombardment cannon. Four hunters or one strike cruiser is a really good comparison and although I still think the capital ships have an edge its so minimal as to almost not matter. Having said all that, I don't think the SM is a top tier fleet by any means. The only fleet I can think of in which escorts are equal to their capital ship choices is second rate at best.
' kay.
It is a shame you don't live closer to adepticon to show me the escort magic. I really would like to see it. The escort guy around here is the best I've seen using them but he has never beaten me. He starts out strong but eventually he gets ground down. His escorts just don't have the legs to carry on in any extended engagement and I think thats a fatal flaw. I'd love to be proved wrong about it. Maybe someone else will bring an escort heavy fleet (thats not nids or eldar) to adepticon.
Yeah, pity it is. I wish I could play against you people, alas, it is a big ocean between.
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Having said all that, I don't think the SM is a top tier fleet by any means.
;D ::) So that's why it's easy to win with them. :P
I'll be bringing escorts, so we'll see how it goes!
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In scenarios, escorts can also be great transport chasers and transport escorts.
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Indefinitely think SMs are top tier. Super excellent fleet.
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Pre faq 2010 the marine fleet was quite poor, after the faq they Became better.
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I'll be bringing escorts, so we'll see how it goes!
I am sticking by my statement that SM aren't a top tier fleet but I am glad someone is up to the challenge of trying to open my eyes to the goodness of escorts. As you say we will see how it goes.
In scenarios, escorts can also be great transport chasers and transport escorts.
True but capital ships can fulfill the same role. Not as fast as an escort but normally they have longer ranged guns. Its kind of a wash in the chasing area but they can begin defending earlier with better range and stick it out a lot longer.
What if I take no biomorphs on escorts?
Most of my experience with the Nids has been with biomorphs so I am unsure exactly how taking no biomorphs on escorts is going to impact the fleet. They still have the benefit of enormous squadrons and cheap ships on their side. With biomorphs they could have all that and two spores as well so I think that they are taking a hit overall. Not sure just how large of a hit though. Greater numbers could offset their new fragility. I think the loss of biomorphs is going to impact the hiveships greatly but it will still impact on the escorts to some degree.
With the Necrons, I have no fleet for them yet, however I think the Shroud is poor ship and would use escorts instead.
I agree the shroud is a poor ship but I think its slightly better than the 3-4 escorts you could get instead. Its a toss up really but the Ld bonus the shroud gives to the fleet takes it over the top for me. The 6+ natural save of Necron escorts makes them have to stay braced all game which makes them useless. At least the shroud gives you a fleet wide bonus while being otherwise useless.
From experience the all out terror list is pretty strong (Deadshane won Adepticon with Orks) and the clanz list is pretty good with its big squadrons, which means better leadership, which means a frig load of torpedoes.... urgh...
The Terror list was strong during that brief time fighta-bombas had D3+3 as their attacks. Now not so much. 10 ravagers could put out an enormous number of torpedos. I doubt that there would be ten ships left by the time they reached optimal firing range and often they'd crap out and roll 1 torp each for a mighty 10 torpedos. There might be some hidden magic in the clans list but I'm just not seeing it. They are just too fragile, expensive and difficult to use. Admittedly have only played one game with the new clanz list so I am Mathhammering it but I am just not seeing it as a powerful list. Write up a good list and post it up. I will try it out and report back.
Funny, I usually run my escort squadrons in numbers of three, never six, sometimes five. I go for more targets for the enemy the choose between
I normally go for as large as possible. Its too easy to kill just three ships in one go and give up full points. Killing six at once is a lot harder making the chance of disengaging one much more likely.
Disagree. These are fast and good ordnance killah's.
With holofields you really don't need ordance killers unless you are facing a fleet with an outrageous and unusual numbers of launch bays. I'm not seeing a place for these. I'd just bring another light cruiser instead.
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I am sticking by my statement that SM aren't a top tier fleet
I'd enjoy it if you could provide some 1500 point lists from various fleets that you think would be able to take on the SM fleet. It'd be good food for my thought! (we can do it in PM so as to not take up all the space here)
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I'm glad these types are disagreements occur because it means that it is not easy to pick fleets that are overpowered.
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One of the best things about BFG is that it's what you do with your ships that swings games as opposed to what you solely take. One aspect where 40k has been failing in recent years...
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I'm glad these types are disagreements occur because it means that it is not easy to pick fleets that are overpowered.
Yeah, it would mean something was terribly wrong if everyone said the same fleet was best or worst.
Look at Adepticon past winners:
Orks, Tau, Space Marines, Dark Eldar.
Diversity enough!
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I'm glad these types are disagreements occur because it means that it is not easy to pick fleets that are overpowered.
Yeah, it would mean something was terribly wrong if everyone said the same fleet was best or worst.
Look at Adepticon past winners:
Orks, Tau, Space Marines, Dark Eldar.
Diversity enough!
All of that and still people complain MSM Eldar and Necrons are overpowered. I still see plenty of complaints that the game only works with IN and Chaos too and everything else is subpar in comparison.
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I think, if one prepares for those two fleets (lotsa long WB and lotsa lances), then Eldar of any stripe and Necrons are just another fleet. I've never had trouble facing either of them, and that was with my point-blank Marines.
It'd be my bet that if you come to a random game with a prepared fleet, and find out your facing Necrons and that you have little to do against them, you'll come away from it upset.
The only fleet I've been unhappy to play against is the 5 nova cannon in 1500 points kinda guy, at Adepticon a few years ago. Beat him with terrain, but it still wasn't any sort of fun...
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All of that and still people complain MSM Eldar and Necrons are overpowered. I still see plenty of complaints that the game only works with IN and Chaos too and everything else is subpar in comparison.
Hey,
MMS Eldar was not developed because Eldar MSM are overpowered. MSM Eldar are broken in rule design and make Eldar overpowered and underpowered at the same time. ;)
Necrons I have no issues with.
@ Seahawk, personally I rather face five NC then a wall of well played torpedoes.
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One of the best things about BFG is that it's what you do with your ships that swings games as opposed to what you solely take. One aspect where 40k has been failing in recent years...
This I have to agree on. There is no substitute for a well played fleet. We can argue about what constitutes an optimized fleet but it doesn't matter if it isn't well played.
I'd enjoy it if you could provide some 1500 point lists from various fleets that you think would be able to take on the SM fleet. It'd be good food for my thought! (we can do it in PM so as to not take up all the space here)
I will get back to you with some lists within the week. Also you can PM me what you think is a good SM fleet. My SM fleet list I think is second rate but I will send that list along anyway as well.
Yeah, it would mean something was terribly wrong if everyone said the same fleet was best or worst.
Some of this I think is small pond syndrome. In some degree or another we are all large fish in small ponds. BFG doesn't have the following that 40k does. I might think escorts are underpowered because there isn't anyone in my pond that uses them well enough. Some of you might not have anyone in your area that is from the captital ship school at all let alone someone who can play such a fleet well.
The only fleet I've been unhappy to play against is the 5 nova cannon in 1500 points kinda guy, at Adepticon a few years ago. Beat him with terrain, but it still wasn't any sort of fun
Have to agree on that. I just dislike it because other than lucking out and having terrain that could be useful to hide while approaching, you basicly just have to hope he rolls poorly. I find facing Necrons to be like that to some degree as well. At least with a torpedo line fleet you can move to avoid, adjust your approach,defend with ordnance,etc. You are a part of the game. Fortunately its a fleet that often doesn't do well in tournaments because it is crappy against the eldar. It is a spoiler fleet though and if he is rolling hot it can be a problem. Its much better now than when we first started and Novas were a guess weapon. We'd never miss after the first shot. We ended up house ruling one nova per 750pts. I think its one of the things that hurt the rise of BFG in the early days. A good guesser with an all nova cannon fleet could easily destroy everyone but eldar in an unfun manner. This could be mitigated with good play but in order to learn how to play you have to get past that steep hill and I don't think a lot of people tried.
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Hmm, what would people suggest for allying in Eldar to an Imperial Navy fleet?
For convenience's sake, the Eclipse is a quick 250 points...
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For effectiveness:
Deadly Nightshades & Deadly Hemlocks. 3 + 3. Or 6 of one kind.
A bit fluffier would be an Aurora or Solaris + Nightshades or Hemlocks.
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I hope those rules are published soon, so that I can plan and plot and scheeeeeemmmme!
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they are into the guy who does the formatting and layout and have been for about a week.
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BFG UPDATED TOURNAMENT RULES HERE
http://www.adepticon.org/14rules/2014bfg.pdf (http://www.adepticon.org/14rules/2014bfg.pdf)
http://cart.adepticon.org/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=43&products_id=839 (http://cart.adepticon.org/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=43&products_id=839)
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Some clarifications, s'il vous plait:
0-1 cruiser of max 8 hp
Cruiser, or Cruiser hull? In other words, only cruisers, not light/heavy/battle/grand cruisers. Or, is it any ship of the type "Cruiser", regardless of distinction, as long as it's not "Battleship" or "Escort" or "Defense" and is 8 HP.
Also, at minimum, it MUST consist of two escorts, yes?
Vet Fighter Aces: Fighters stay alive for one extra set of ordnance gone through compared to standard attack craft of the race, Bombers ignore 1 turret for number of attacks rolled.
So, a standard fighter can remove two enemy ordnance? Is that limited per turn or forever? Example: I have a standard fighter counter. It makes contact with another marker and removes it on my turn. Next turn, it goes after another marker. Do I lose my fighter now, or did it "reset"?
Another question: fighters v fighters. If two fighter markers hit each other, what happens? Normally they'd both be removed, but this special rule says no. So, do both markers stay on the table? Do they fight each other again and then die?
Another question: fighters v waves. Is it like durable ordnance, where it can remove one counter and then attack another?
Another question: durable fighters. Do they only roll the 4+ after the second marker they remove? So, attacking a wave I remove two enemy markers, then roll to see if I stay. If I do, can I then kill two more markers before having to test to stay again? Back to the very first question, if I only remove one marker a turn, do they then never test to stay on the table?
+1 bonus battle point for having at least one ship/squadron from your fleet successfully navigate the warp rift on the table.
As per Desperate Allies, the allied flotilla cannot achieve this, right?
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Classed as Cruiser. Yes, at least 2 escorts.
Vet Fighter Aces. It's like the rule for Eldar fighters.
Fighter vs Fighter. Give me until later tonight to clarify that one.
Fighters vs Waves. Yes a single fighter can remove 2 bombers from a wave then is gone.
Durable Fighters. Give me until later tonight to clarify that one.
Warp Rift: Note. The scenarios that are on the website in the rules section are last years scenarios for reference. Be patient young grasshopper to find out what devilish things we have planned for you this year muahahahahahahahahahaha.
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So straight Cruisers, no light/heavy/battle/grand. Gotcha; may want to clarify on the site, as light cruisers could be a popular choice for the points.
Also, I was just referencing the rift and allies, just so we're on the same page. ;)
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No. something that has "Cruiser/HP" in its stat line. Light, and Standard. You can't get Heavys or grands based on the rules. Lights are just fine.
I know. We'll have answers for you if that is applicable.
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I also see that Armada refits are available. So that means I could take special torpedoes, torpedo bombers, and orbital mines?
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correct.
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Ok. I am going to make a unilateral decision on the Veteran Fighter skill right now as I haven't heard back from Raptor yet (he's got a new job so I'm not surprised) even though we're past the deadline.
Change Veteran Attack Craft Fighter Section to this. Bombers are unchanged.
Your Fighter squadrons are now resilient. If they were already resilient, their first resilient roll is passed on a 2+ and may make a second resilient roll as normal in the same phase instead of being immediately removed.
Because of this, there is no conflict between this upgrade and the rules for resilient vs resilient in the 2010 FAQ.
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What's depressing about the 8HP limit is that Chaos fleets cannot have any cruisers to benefit from Battle Brothers or Sector Allies. With only Orks as their BB (fitting, mind), and all Ork Kroozers being 10HP...sadz.
In fact, Chaos gets almost nothing out of the rules. The lance upgrade only affects Idolators, and everything else only benefits from the ignoring blast markers. Poo.
Okay, so regular fighters become Resilient, and Resilient Fighters are changed to a 2+/4+.
I hope these are in use next year too when I use Imperials, because Thunderhawks/Eldar Fighters are going to be damn hard to shift with AC.
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did i really screw that badly up with the ork kroozers?
/me goes to check the pdfs...
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Ork Cruisers are legal.
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So Chaos can take a 10HP Ork Kroozer as an ally?
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yes. I am going to allow that. though if you look at the ork clanz pdf there IS that ork lite kroozer.
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Hmm, true. Still, thanks for opening it up to standard kroozers. They're all not that good, but it at least gives options.
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thanks for pointing it out. I don't think Raptor or I actually looked at the ship stats before making the rules up. Our bad. Both changes have been updated in the official rules on the website now.
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Yea sry been very very busy painting and testing stuff, I did look over the Ork stuff and what I had initially thought was that alot of the races had just enough poits for a reg cruiser or light cruiser and some escorts, this by no means meant that you couldnt take a light cruiser, standad cruiser, grandcruiser, as lonf as the stat line didnt pass the 8 hp limit. sry about earlier new job meansd lots of hrs awayh from the pc but rest assured we will all have alot of funn this year. also I agree with Lord about the change to Fighter Aces I thought we covered alot of the bases with how we wanted the fighter aces thing to work but works better this way
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Just so you know, the new updates are on the rules doc, but the allies chart fell off.
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Anyone else excited?
...anyone else still have an unpainted fleet to paint?? :P
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Well all terrain is almost done,..and honeslty I consider it an honour to do this for Adepticon I can only hope you guys have agreat time on the terrain setup, with my busy busy new job coming home and painting the terrain and everything I still have a few ships I need to finish thanks to the community out here for supporting a great game!
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Chaos takes it! Of course, Chaos being 50% of the field (and Taudar being most of the rest ;) ), it was good odds.
Once my memory card stops acting up, I'll do my standard write up.