Specialist Arms Forum
Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Discussion => Topic started by: cjbennett22 on January 19, 2015, 05:58:13 PM
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I have always just used singular buildings as terrain but I would love to try my hand at making an actual city/village terrain piece.
I need some help imagining how to build one and what buildings and what scale. I assume n-scale for model trains and then everything is pretty cheap but I'm sure it will all add up to make a really nice terrain piece.
Any visuals you can share? Thanks everyone.
how big are the terrain pieces total?
I would need to have removable buildings.....or should they stay static and restrict movement/formations?
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Combine both... having larger static (set) pieces in combination with movable jumble.
Make sure roads and squares/markets etc are easy to identify and have plenty of rubble to move around for the wreckage
Unless of course you would want to depict a fully operational city (in which case you still need the streetplan!) and populate it with the housing on Brumbaers site!
Even better...... have a bit of ruins to fit INSIDE the paper houses and you can change the board on a whim
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Interesting! :D
No visuals but some fluff- and rules-connected thoughts:
Considering the danger of units being destroyed when driven back into impassable terrain might make players scared of entering such a terrainpiece. Worst case scenario it's just a big chunk of very-dangerous-to-enter terrain. Maybe it would be both practical (game-opening) and cool if considerate parts of the city/village has already seen battle and the "current" fighting is done on the remnants of razed and burnt down buildings? There would still be standing buildings around but in this way there would be more room for maneuvers and it would certainly look cool this way too.
Or maybe a special rule that units driven back inside the terrainpiece does so straight back onto the nearest perpendicular (is that the right word?) street.
One way of doing a razed version could be to make a big terrainpiece with just streets laid out around flat spaces of ground. These spaces could then be populated with separate terrainpieces of razed/standing buildings, walls/hedges, a citywell and such. Gives you the option of a different piece of terrain every game, lots of diversity in what to build and extra nice looks ;)
Anyways - That's my 1 swedish krona on the subject :P
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I have bought 4 10mm ones from Total Battle Miniatures.
My intent was to have them in a defensive scenario, mimicing the type of 28mm Warhammer scenario with fortified manors:
http://www.gaming-blog.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/P1010671.jpg
I haven't tried them yet but I would usually only have them in a kind of defensive scenario, not casually on the board as they complicate things.
As for a large scale village, I might find that too complicated so would aim to have ruins instead which all count as dense terrain on a template.
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how about a basic terrain base in any random shape like a woods.....then the same thing as your city scapes pieces you bought, you give a thin layer of a veneer over whatever your usual base is if not 2 layers of that, 1 with your buildings cut out and maybe numbered so they can fit somewhere and you can remove and put them back.....but completely model up a full city or village with fences and gardens and city squares and a market and roads etc etc. and then
heres the kicker
use old z-scale kibri medieval plastic houses made in Germany just like the one in the picture. They have a very large amount of finished ones on e-bay about 10-20 bucks each.
skip out on some pizza every week, buy a house every week instead and you can have a city in no time!
The z-scale is the same size as the brumbaer site buildings that I am currently using a bunch of right now (and are slowly becoming delapitated).
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I apologize in advance if I sound like a mad man, I am going to playtest this a bit tonight but I'm positive it will work just fine.
make a basic terrain piece as the street level of a city, including fences and gardens and fountains and all sorts of stuff, infantry and machines can enter only. Make sure the streets are a proper width for the bases to fit and all intersections are chamfered to help out with fitting the bases as well and make for easy game play. use the road rules to help them move but keep in mind that irregular formations cut your movement to half pace :) Fighting street by street, you will be formed up long ways but just like in fortifications and on top of walls, no flanking bonus' and no support bonus' for either side and no "in the open" bonus'. Earthworks can be purchased to gain defended status bonus'.
Finally, back to the buildings....make it so the buildings are removable but not for your troops, only because they will have structure points like a fortification wall section or siege tower. now you have a defender burrowed into the city like a tick that you need to get out to protect your flank so just start destroying buildings until the right ones are gone and then they no longer get the terrain bonuses! Calvary and anything else can go and get them. Maybe allow infantry to destroy buildings, auto hits like a battering ram, defender can purchase booby traps for the buildings like burning oil or rock droppers in a siege game.
With the individual buildings getting destroyed, think of the scenarios possible, save the city from the orcs!!!! keep at least 2 buildings in tact. etc. etc.
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Check this page http://www.totalbattleminiatures.com/bigbattalions/10-15mm/blackpowdereurope.html out and scroll to the bottom for ideas on townships. It's what I'm going to use as a basis.
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those are my inspiration but their shipping here to the states makes them not feasible for me :(
making the base and flocking everything but the buildings would be free as I have all of the supplies. But if I purchased as many buildings as those ones came with I guess they would still cost the same.
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I was going to say I didn't think the shipping was that bad, but I checked and I ordered from Maelstorm before they folded. The Saxon stuff is great.
I'm definitely a fan of scatter terrain with loose pieces. I did that for forests, and would like to do it to represent build up areas at some point too. If people don't like buildings that move that way, then we'll just play them as static pieces. Either way, tons of flexibility.
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The "woods" terrain pieces that I have made are shown here
http://www.architectsofwar.com/Howto/forests.pdf
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the woods terrain pieces I made are shown here
http://www.architectsofwar.com/Howto/forests.pdf
I made one large and one small
I used a few less nails than they did to support the canopy for troop base clearance. In one game way back last year right after finishing the woods my brother and I played a game set up by me and I had hid the troll cave inside the large woods so on a roll of a 6 at the beginning of your turn you would have trolls come into the woods to get you. He had the right side of the table but never entered the woods, I was really let down LOL
can anyone measure the width of the roads on the total battle black powder village sets? do they work for fitting an infantry unit in sideways?
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I know this is off topic, but I was wondering (inspired by this thread) if any1 every did try to make a mini-Mordheim game with Warmaster minis. I have heard about pocket-warhammer and pocket-40 (with Epic) but never pocket-Mordheim ;) Obviously you would need different basing, but imagine the cities you could create! 8)
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I know this is off topic, but I was wondering (inspired by this thread) if any1 every did try to make a mini-Mordheim game with Warmaster minis. I have heard about pocket-warhammer and pocket-40 (with Epic) but never pocket-Mordheim ;) Obviously you would need different basing, but imagine the cities you could create! 8)
I did.... building scaled down from copies of the offical Mordheim sheets
Used small magnetized plastic cut-out for single characters and the dutch equivalent of a "dime"(dubbeltje) for Henchmen. Henchmen where placed with two or 3 on a stand. Gangs made with anything and everything which was stripable from Empire stands (and other assorted)
it all fitted in a shoebox and saw a lot of travel
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That sounds absolutely *ADORABLE*
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Oh man :D
The pretty little pictures in my head ^^
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It's hard enough moving the models in crowded, ruin-filled streets at 28mm. Did you have to play using tweezers?!
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Tutorial for forest is great!
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I had this piece of ply wood ready to go to start a dice tower so I am just borrowing it for now. Drew up the city on it and put in my brumbear paper buildings after repair a few of them from heavy use. The streets line the troops up sideways and for infantry that is an irregular formation putting them at half pace, the streets I am saying makes the first order issue automatic from a commander that is also touching the road. Combat in the streets is just like on a fortification wall, no flanking or support so very drawn out combat for both sides. No LOS through 2 cm, only infantry and machines can enter (just like fortifications). I think I will give the buildings 8 structure points and use infantry like a battering ram when getting rid of them. and I might just give the city certain zones, knock down this building and now LOS and regular movement in that zone, reducing the town. Still wondering if I would have the infantry take down a building to make an earthwork. :)
Tactically you could send calvary around the town and secure it for the infantry to come pouring through. everything would be really small and low so not to mess up the miniature bases that much. the terrain would keep massive units out during gameplay anyways so I doubt it would be that much of a pain.
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as for the woods, that is my small woods, I used the same 1/8 plywood for the base, just kinda painted it and flocked it with several different grasses and used finishing nails to hold up the canopy. hammered them in like normal and then glued them to help hold them in place. after you move your troops into them you can replace the canopy. if you move troops in with your opponent in the bathroom or just not paying attention then replace the canopy, he or she will be in for a surprise next turn! I like to think that these woods show that I want terrain to be as pretty as possible without taking away any game play if not actually enhancing it! Pretty and cheap actually!
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one with troops, rangers of course!
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I'm not sure I would be allowing normal troops to demolish buildings. Knocking down a building is a major under taking, and even if it was knocked down, there would be a big pile of rubble. Giants and other monsters are another matter - but will still make lots of rubble.
Burning buildings was the normal medieval method of removing buildings - but this causes more of a blockage in the short term with fire and smoke, and can spread...
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Thats a nice little village you've got there :)
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i was reading that reply and another thing popped in my head.....
If i was using artillery to destroy the buildings would the infantry still be able to use the wreckage to build their earthworks? and that is the loophole in my rules so that would be a bad idea, and i agree the buildings would not be able to be taken down by basic infantry because of the mortar they used to create them hence burning them down is the only way to get rid of them.
So maybe a simplified sacrifice of their movement phase to roll a dice and on a 3+ they could "rummage" through the buildings to grab enough furniture and things to erect their fortifications? But the cannons can still take the buildings away from being able to be "rummaged". That sounds more balanced too, to me anyways. I am still hoping on play testing this weekend before building a finished product.
I hope everyone likes the woods "how-to". The nails still impede a bit no matter what but everything works out really well and it doesnt slow the game down at all in my opinion.
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nice, tell us how is the playtesting
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I played a 1k game on my workbench, 2x2 feet there about. Put the city terrain in the center just about and played my dwarves against my chaos.
City terrain rules: only infantry can move into it, LOS is blocked 2cm deep. The city roads are regular roads and therefore anything can enter them (skinny roads, so to change formations and possibly imposing half pace movement). With the infantry moving around and through the buildings they need to be removable for sure. I wouldn't even allow the use of any modeled fences and hedges, etc. to give defended status as it would just be too cramped (but maybe on another city terrain piece). no support, flanking and advancing bonus' (not in the open) as per the fortification/walls rules for siege games. I did not playtest it but I was thinking that a building would not be blown up by a solid cannon ball or rock but just put a large hole in it so no taking away buildings (maybe a scenario specific rule). And I would allow any infantry to rummage at a 3+ during movement phase to not move but instead erect 3 places of earthworks, road blocking could happen and an infantry unit could waste its time and not find enough stuff.
the first picture was of the hounds just entering the city to try a line jump and flank, using the roads they could make up a lot of ground in a single turn to do it but the first order was all they received, then fired upon by rangers, as per the drive back rule imposing a "straight line back" then they would have been driven back into the "city terrain" and confused as they could not enter it.
the second image just highlights the road access in the city for everyone and everything, the rangers never took the time to make any fortifications but won the fight against the hounds anyways (the rangers rolled very well all through the game)
I like the terrain rules, makes it a different and fun point of interest on the map.
overall, in the game, the chaos pushed everything forward like normal but the dwarves took it all like a champ. The chaos had to give up when a last ditch push by marauders led by the general himself was eventually countered and pursued to death back into the city terrain, by the dwarf rangers.
Thanks for hearing me out and giving me some feedback or questions to help me out!!
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second image
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I like the city rules, maybe I would not use the status of ramparts in other terrain than ramparts. But in general interesting rules for a city scenario.
It remembers me a famous an episode of a charge of mameluks cavalry in the middle of my natal city (Madrid) during napoleonic times... you know a regiment of cavalry charing inside a city, because they were in the main streets main square (plaza mayor).
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu205/jchaos79/23g_zps481a52f3.jpg)
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maybe not ramparts but whatever you want to call them. defended none the less, 5+ to hit. combined with the lack of +1 to attack for NOT being in the open.
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if I understand right, defended is:
5+ to been hit
No in open (negate the +1 to charger attack)
If it is shot, negate 1 dice to fall back.
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yes, if the terrain sits in the right spot it could prove very costly to the opponent of someone who can get an infantry brigade through the town terrain first and set up a defensive position in time. defended position is a pretty good bonus.
that's kind of what I am aiming for but at the same time that infantry would probably be way out in front of the army in a huge effort to get there and set up. or with both players doing it combat could possibly commence very quickly and a defense would never get put up. :)
Or everyone avoids the town and goes around. ha!
anything is possible I suppose
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OK it's hardly a metropolis but this is the kind of layout I'm aiming for with my Total Battle Miniatures order that just arrived.
The package is heavy because the walls are actually metal, not resin, and look great.
The buildings are slightly larger in scale than I thought they were, looking a bit more like 12mm than 10mm, but still acceptable I think. Lots of bubbles in th e resin though, needs a bit of Liquid Green Stuff going over them.
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that's a metropolis to me, I know, I was a mayor of several metropolis' back in the sim city 2000 days!!!
What are you using to base it all on? How tall are those walls? Can you post a picture of your favorite basic infantry behind one just for reference please? :)
I purchased a grass mat a while back from woodland scenic. a vinyl sheet flocked in "spring grass". I just roll it out for games instead of having permanent table anywhere. It's 4' by 8' but I doubt I will ever play something that big for a while so I just cut 2' off of one end (4' x 6') and then the real purpose to the mat is to glue it down onto your railroad scenery.....the paper mache' hills and stuff? So I am going to put that 2' x 4" down on my city terrain and then you scrape off the grass to make roads and then take some of the strips of the shingles I use for roads to make the stone walls. They are really low so they look the part but wont really make your units stand up straight. And then some left over tree material from that forest canopy project for select bushes.
I think I will also scrape off the grass for the buildings and then burn the plywood base with a lighter to maybe show some "burned down" buildings.
and of course put in a garden which I can find down at my local railroad hobby store where I get the rest of this stuff from.
I have not been able to do more due to some house fixes that have popped up last night :( maybe back on it by middle of next week. I know my city terrain will look good and I am getting excited for sure.
Cant wait to see yours finished as well!
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I have my spring grass vinyl mat glued to the plywood piece so this weekend I hope to finish the terrain piece.
I have been distracted with painting my new dwarf army pieces and the mighty empire bits.
Also having to shovel snow doesn't help!
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chaos knights rampaging through the city!!!!
not all the way done yet, need to add a few details, a garden and maybe a well or something like that.
but it shows the infantry able to go anywhere, the hero in the tower for the command bonus' and the knights able to use the road.
Don't think the chaos knights would win this one though.
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I like the tower!,
Great terrain.
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Thank you, those buildings are brumbaer!!!
Whoever or wherever he is I hope he loves seeing those buildings printed out and made up all over the world on all sorts of gaming tables! They are so simple and yet they make a huge impact.
I honestly think that his buildings were the thing that got me back into this game honestly. I had put it away for so long and when I wanted to get rid of it for good I had to research to find out what to sell them for and started finding things like this website and those buildings. They made me love the 10mm scale all over again like when I was a kid.
now I have all of this 7-8 months later.
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A very nice table.
Are those magnets on the ruins in the bottom right corner? If so, what attaches there?
Do you have a link to Brumbaer's buildings? I used to have them (I think, assuming we mean the same guy), but lost that computer.
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http://www.brumbaer.de/Wm/Build/index.html
this will take you straight to the buildings. I printed them right onto card stock.
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Stormwind, have you finished your city terrain piece from the earlier picture yet? Anxious to see how it turned out
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No, sorry, urban stuff is a low priority compared with actual units and more common terrain. Also they were covered in little resin bubbles so I kind of just dumped them into a box of other terrain stuff for now until I can face doing it.
Also I got distracted clearing up some Kislev / Lizardmen.