Specialist Arms Forum
Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Discussion => Topic started by: mind robber on September 25, 2009, 06:06:57 PM
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Me and a mate are considering getting a warmaster army each as its the only SG we havnt played (oddly as we prefere the fantasy background to 40k), he's thinking of a vampire army (to match his wfb) and im likeing the look of Araby.
Would these two armies produce good games? Is 1000pts a good size to offer a fun and varied game? and roughly how much £££ would it take to build an army of this size?
Any suggestions on a fun balanced 1000pt list for these 2 armies would be appeciated/
Thankyou for any help.
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Check http://sites.google.com/site/wmplaytest/ (http://sites.google.com/site/wmplaytest/) for printable counters and create your prefered army for some test-runs. In essence if you use the Army selectors properly you will have balanced armies, with some variaty to allow for playstyle. 1K battles is doable to learn, but the game comes into its own at 1500+ - 3000 pts, with most people using 2K as a more-or-less defacto standard. a 2K list means that you take all min/max allowance from the Army selector DOUBLE when you create a list.
There is several ways to get some bang-4-yur-buck when basing units (specificly missile troops and cavalry), but actualy cost depends on your selection and the availability of the models, hence my suggestion to start playing using counters, allowing you to get a grip on the rules and play around with army composition without a deep investment in models.
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I start with 500 pts quicks battles to test the rules. I make a lot of short games.
Then I use to play 1000k. And it is fun and lots of action. By the way it is true that when you go to 2000 pts is when the game become more excite.
Unfortunatly i do not ever play with araby neither vamp count so I cannot help so much.
Have fun with the proyect. If you are expecting to paint an army, in this forum is a Tale of warmaster painters threat, to promote the paint build of a new army for fun . You can join and share your ideas or search for paint help!
Is good to see new players
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Vampire counts and Araby are surely good armies and if you and your friend like them best (thats the most important factor) than take them.
1000p games are a great way to get to know the rules better but as the others said but a 2000p game is just nicer. You have more opportunities and you can sometimes even try out moves that would otherwise end a 1000p game because of the lower breakpoint.
I made my first 2 games (1000p) with some cardboard cutouts like Lex mentioned and highly recommend that. I doesnt look good but its a great way to find out, if you really like the gameplay or not before investing anything (except time) into it.
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I think Vampires vs Araby is a good choice imo. One army has a lot of shooting, the other one none. Both armies have good magic and the combat strength is about comparable. (And I think Araby is the most beautiful army GW ever produced).
On the other hand cardboard armies are a good choice. Even if you cannot resist buying the armies, you can already play and test them in the cardboard version until you have painted them.
A good idea is to put your first 1500pts army-lists up here so you might get some advice. I know "Claus" has some experience with Araby and there should be some players that have played Vampires (more ofthen than my three or four times).
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I only can agree to comments given by SpiritusX ....
For me Araby army is the most beautifulest one of the WM range (but tha´s only my opinion)
As for playstile and choice it can differ but for 2.000 pts games you should have following set up.
1 General
2 Heroes
2 wizzards (maybe 1 with Djinn mount)
4 Spearmen units
4 Archer units
6 Knight units
2 Desert Rider units
The remaining points then depend on your playstile....you can add additional archers, Flying Carpets, Desert riders or Camel riders.
Cheers
Claus
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Good advice already given.
All of the official Warmaster armies are pretty much balanced - as are most of the experimental/ fan ones to be honest.
Don't neglect terrain in favour of the troops - terrain is an important part of Warmaster. Of course, as with using counters until you get figures, terrain doesn't need to be particularly expensive or sophisticated. A green rug thrown over piles of books makes for perfectly acceptable hills and a salt cellar can be a more than adequate windmill/ wizards tower.
My advice on choosing armies remains what it always has been - pick an army you'll love even when it's losing :-D
Mike
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Thankyou for all the help, heres the (mainly infantry, not a massive knight fan - visually) army i am considering, is 3 characters enough or too many for a 1000pt game?
General 125
Hero 80
Wizard 45
3x Spearmen 135
3x Bowmen 165
Guards 70
2x Camel Riders 160
Elephants 200
Magic Items 20
A quick beginners rules question - does equiping a character with a magic carpet reduce his speed down to a chariot or do they keep their basic 60cm move?
Don't neglect terrain in favour of the troops - terrain is an important part of Warmaster
Struggling to find some decent 10mm terrain that i like the look off (except for that Kallistra castle shown in another thread). Is there any company that produces the right scale scenery? What (and whom from) were the items forgeworld used to sell?
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Terrain:
You'll need a lot, especially given your preference for infantry. In open, they are often speedbumps for cavalry. (You might find the article on strategy and objectives for Warmaster to be of some interest, by the way).
Woodland Scenics does very good trees. J&R miniatures and others do some fairly good Renaissance European Buildings, not to mention some middle eastern models appropriate to Araby armies.
I'd love to be able to get into Kallistra's terrain -- that looks like a very nice system. GHQ's Terrain maker is actually the same scale --i.e. 4"/10cm hexes.
I have a bunch of old Geo Hex terrain, which I have only used a couple times, but that was a nice system as well.
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Also Terrain:
If i might suggest http://kerrandking.co.uk/ (http://kerrandking.co.uk/) who do an excellent 10mm City in a Box perfect for Araby, and did I mention, free shipping worldwide!!
Fwiw mind robber, and I've yet to play Araby, your list looks very friendly. I hope that the Vampire COunt player list is equally as nice, or the player is prone to bad luck for the sake of balance! Also; you've just got to get at least one Magic Carpets - they are the shizzle in the theme department, if nothing else ;D Also might want to consider a dispel scroll and orb as standard magic kit - especailly against raise dead! - but better to try some games first, and see if you agree!
Very interetsed in any army pics or battle reports you'd care to post as you get to grips with the game...
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I think the 3 characters are ok as the wizard is not too good at commanding. He's more of a magical support (and some nice spells he has).
But I definitely would not field Elephants at 1k. They're way too expensive. You'll need more breakpoint at that level.
Claus always told me that Camel riders are not too effective, so I would more think about taking Knights instead (although one or two units of Camel Riders should be in a 2k list imo if just because of the design and the fluffiness).
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Also Terrain:
If i might suggest http://kerrandking.co.uk/ (http://kerrandking.co.uk/) who do an excellent 10mm City in a Box perfect for Araby, and did I mention, free shipping worldwide!!
Does anyone have experience with this supplier ? should we use the 10 or the 15 mil scenery bits (as from practice I think for houses etc a slightly oversized look actualy is better....
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your list looks very friendly. I hope that the Vampire COunt player list is equally as nice, or the player is prone to bad luck for the sake of balance!
Thats got me worried 8) though we do play for fun and theme, a game too one sided isnt much fun so wouldnt want a really poor list.
But I definitely would not field Elephants at 1k. They're way too expensive. You'll need more breakpoint at that level.
Claus always told me that Camel riders are not too effective, so I would more think about taking Knights instead
I just love the image of charging camels and the elephants look (rules wise) fun too use. Whats an average breakpoint for a 1000pt army?
Im guessing from these two comments that cavalry is king in this game? Are infantry underpowered/overcosted or just hard to use effectively?
He's more of a magical support (and some nice spells he has
I guess Mirage is pretty useless against the undead?
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Thats got me worried 8) though we do play for fun and theme, a game too one sided isnt much fun so wouldnt want a really poor list.
In my opinion, I would make some test/games with the card-units to know how balance it is.
I just love the image of charging camels and the elephants look (rules wise) fun too use. Whats an average breakpoint for a 1000pt army?
So then I think you should go for camels and elephants, get the units you like.
The breakpoint is a number calculated as the half of the units that have your army. Lots of knights (expensives units --> low your breakpoint) lot of infantry (cheap units --> rise your breakpoint)
Im guessing from these two comments that cavalry is king in this game? Are infantry underpowered/overcosted or just hard to use effectively?
Well, cavalry is usually the best for hitting the enemy, because it is based in short frontal. But in my opinion infantry is not underpowerer. I like to play with more infantry and less cavalry. Maybe in tournaments you could found armies with a lot of cavalry and could be hard to beat. But I think the game is for simulation more than to win at all cost, so if you both design realistic armies I am sure you will have a lot of fun (don’t get afraid to get those lovely camels ;) )
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Im guessing from these two comments that cavalry is king in this game? Are infantry underpowered/overcosted or just hard to use effectively?
Cavalry is indeed king. But put even poor infantry in a forest, and the cavalry can't touch them. Put them behind a wall, or up a slope, and whilst the (heavy) cavalry will still probably chew the first rank unit to pieces, it will likely get mauled in the process and be unable to follow up properly.
So really, terrain is king, or the use of terrain is king in WM.
But saying that, most infantry is still overpriced for its effectiveness compared to cavalry. Or you can look at it the other way, and that heavy cavalry is too cheap. You jsut need look at WMA where 3/3/4+ save cavalry costs 125pts, and every order after the first suffers an additional -1 command penalty to see this. And in WMA support counts before casualty removal, which when 2/3 of your unit being attacked gets wiped out in the first round of combat, it really makes a huge difference to combat results. And combat being limited to two round, and of course supporting units counting as being in combat, it all really adds up to a slightly better balanced game IMHO. Takes a bit longer to play though...
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As has been said, cavalry is king. Nevertheless, so long as the Vampire Count player is only taking an equal number of cav you should be fine. I'd only max out on cav if it were a competitive game, or you knew your opponent would also do so. Tournaments are another matter however ;)
Infantry in forests is nice, but can't really do anything other than deny break value to enemy cav (which you might argue is the point of all infantry bar dwarves in warmaster). Unfortunately as Araby doesn't have war machines, this means at best a 30cm exclusion zone from archer fire around forests, but in practice, getting the orders off the get the infantry in with a human hero and the associated penalties of ordering in the woods, make this a pretty unlikely scenario unless there are woods on, or very near your deployment zone.
Infantry on a hill is a nice trick, although again IMHO it works best with war machines in support, to draw the enemy troops or provide a much bigger exclusion zone. Again the difficulty will be in getting the infantry up there with human command values. Might work against undead, but you'd be easy meat to a command 10 army I'd imagine.
In your situation mind robber, I'd try some basic games first, then when you are more familair with the rules, try some scenarios where infantry may find additional uses.
As to why infantry are weak, First: basing. Three stands of cavalry fight 2 stands of infantry. Second: Saving throws, cav usually have superior saves. Third: higher movement means cavalry will be the charger, and potentially even in the flank (which really rips infantry). Fourth: Infantry can't pursue cavalry. So even if you do hurt them, you are unlikely to break 'em in one turn. Consider: a unit of Araby knight charging enemy skeletons, in the open. The Knights have 12 dice on the attack (4 per stand). An average of 6 hit. An average of one wound is saved by the Skeletons. Fighting back the skeletons attack with 4 dice (2 per stand) so an average of 2 hits. On average the knights make 1 save, so a total of one wound is dealt to the knights, while 5 wounds are dealt to the skeletons. A stand is removed with 2 carry over wounds, and the unit is driven back 4cm (5-1) which means on the next combat, which begins immediately the knights now have 15 dice to attack. Rinse and repeat. Even if the skeletons charge they are only going to be able to fight with 2 stands, and have a total of 6 attacks (3 per stand) against the 9 dice of the knights. Using the same averages, 2 wounds are done to the knights, while 3-4 are done to the skeletons. The charging skeletons are pushed back and suddenly the knights are following up with lots of attacks! :'(
Although to be clear; with a good general, good terrain, high command value, or special infantry the infantry vs cav battle is by no means a forgone conclusion. Also, this take on cav is not inconsitent with how Fantasy Battle works, so it is kind of neat like that.
I guess Mirage is pretty useless against the undead?
Not at all, although against VC who don't shoot at all, I imagine it'd only be used to disrupt line-of-sight for charging purposes.
Does anyone have experience with this supplier ? should we use the 10 or the 15 mil scenery bits (as from practice I think for houses etc a slightly oversized look actualy is better....
I wouldn't have suggested it if I hadn't sampled it. The 10mm City in a Box is awesome in my opinion. The scale is very nice, and there is reasonable detail. Below are some scale pics so you can judge for yourself. I haven't cleaned or painted the buildings, they are straight from the 'box'.
(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/warmaster888/Building1.jpg)
(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/warmaster888/Building2.jpg)
(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/warmaster888/Building3.jpg)
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Ohhhhhh I want some of those then I guess !! now to figure out IF using the 15 mm stuuf in combination with the 10 still "looks" OK, assuming the 15 will be used for bigger buildings like Palaces etc.....
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As to why infantry are weak, First: basing. Three stands of cavalry fight 2 stands of infantry. Second: Saving throws, cav usually have superior saves. Third: higher movement means cavalry will be the charger, and potentially even in the flank (which really rips infantry). Fourth: Infantry can't pursue cavalry. So even if you do hurt them, you are unlikely to break 'em in one turn. Consider: a unit of Araby knight charging enemy skeletons, in the open. The Knights have 12 dice on the attack (4 per stand). An average of 6 hit. An average of one wound is saved by the Skeletons. Fighting back the skeletons attack with 4 dice (2 per stand) so an average of 2 hits. On average the knights make 1 save, so a total of one wound is dealt to the knights, while 5 wounds are dealt to the skeletons. A stand is removed with 2 carry over wounds, and the unit is driven back 4cm (5-1) which means on the next combat, which begins immediately the knights now have 15 dice to attack. Rinse and repeat. Even if the skeletons charge they are only going to be able to fight with 2 stands, and have a total of 6 attacks (3 per stand) against the 9 dice of the knights. Using the same averages, 2 wounds are done to the knights, while 3-4 are done to the skeletons. The charging skeletons are pushed back and suddenly the knights are following up with lots of attacks!
Hohoho - not so fast, young man!
If the skeletons do their countercharge, they will do it with a lot of support, they will most probably cover at least a flank and with a little luck they will block the path of retreat by "Raising Dead" which by chance will result in the loss of the cavalry? So Undead has lost about 60 points until then and Araby 110?
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I mentioned the Fanatic article "Strategy and Objectives for Warmaster."
It has the significant benefit of providing rules for map objectives, which helps infantry to come into its own.
http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/fanatic/93saofw.pdf