Specialist Arms Forum
Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Discussion => Topic started by: pw on September 26, 2009, 11:21:30 PM
-
Hi, I'm thinking I might enter my Empire army into the Winter Warmer next January and have started twiddling around with lists. With only three games under my belt I could do with some tips. Here's list one:
General, Orb of majesty
Wizard
Hero on Griffon
Hero
6 Halberds
4 Crossbow
3 Knights
2 Flagellants
Cannon
Pistoliers
Steam Tank
I guess question one is, are there enough heroes in there to command the army.
Second, can anyone think of a good reason to keep the Steam Tank beyond it being a nice toy?
And third, should I drop some Halberds and get more knights on board?
-
1)4 commanders should suffice for 1700 points.
2)The steam tank with the new rules where it does not get destroyed if it looses the combat is useable but I would say even than it is still more a nice toy than an efficient unit.
3)Depends pretty much on your playstyle. Either more offensive power with 4 knights or defensive with more infantry.
-
question on point 2. When did this rule get changed?
-
Not sure about new steam tank rules... is the Winter Warmer using unofficial lists?
On the list, I agree largely with Guthwine. Drop a hero and use your general to give as many orders as possible. Add a dispel scroll to the wizard, sword to the hero on Griffon, drop the extra halberds and steam tank and consider adding more knights or pistoliers.
The only reason I can think of to use the steam tank is if there are objectives or scenario's used at the warmer. If so, the stank does a fair job of taking and holding things, if properly supported by cavalry.
-
question on point 2. When did this rule get changed?
I think it was more of an idea, than a rule change to make the steamtank useable.
In my opinion the steamtank is great for casual games, but for a tournament there are surely better units to take for the amount of points. Also you could change the tank into the 4th unit of knights + a dispell scroll.
-
... Add a dispel scroll to the wizard, sword to the hero on Griffon ...
There are no magic items in the Winter Warmer lists.
Cheers, Martyn
--
Tombworld4 --> http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/tombworld4/pages/wm_index.html
-
Thanks for the suggestions. I'm guessing that playing the army aggressively will be more fun and dropping halberdiers saves me much pain in terms of painting.
Here's version two (with magic stripped out):
General,
Wizard
Hero on Griffon
4 Halberds
4 Crossbow
5 Knights
2 Pistoliers
2 Flagellants
Cannon
5 points spare (I think).
Sound better? I'm a bit nervous about losing the hero but I'd guess I'll have four brigades, one of which will likely sit on the baseline and concentrate on not dying. This list certainly gives me two nasty fast units of knights and a mobile infantry unit led by Flagellants to dig out any entrenched enemy infantry.
-
I'm sorry but I disagree with Guthwine on this. I think it's a mistake to drop the second hero. You want to play offensively? Then you need a lot of commanders who can take over if others fail. And the wizard is more or less reliable as a commander.
But you only went the path halfways. If you really want to play offensively why don't you drop the cannon? Cannons are great (you can also use them to hurt enemies in woods or similar), but imo only if you have two units of them (and I guess you may not take two because of the 1700 restriction? Or is it 1000 minimums/2000 maximum?).
And did you think of how you will brigade your units? It can be helpful if you think of that beforehand.
Greetings,
Gerald
-
I think there was a misunderstanding, his list was:
General, Orb of majesty
Wizard
Hero on Griffon
Hero
....
I guess question one is, are there enough heroes in there to command the army.
Which are 4 commanders and my answer was:
1)4 commanders should suffice for 1700 points.
I never said he should drop the hero, in fact I was only confirming his choice of command.
I think the list is good, you could as Spiritus suggested drop the cannon and use a second hero.
-
Hi, thanks for the ideas. I'm hoping to get a game this week and I think I'll go with:
General,
Wizard
Hero on Griffon
Hero
4 Halberds
4 Crossbow
5 Knights
2 Pistoliers
2 Flagellants
Spare points on a magic sword (I know I can't use them at the WW)
Brigages would likely be:
3 Knights
2 Knights 2 Pistoliers
2 Flagellants 2 Halberdiers
2 Crossbow 2 Halberdiers
2 Crossbow
I'd be aiming to have the top three brigades moving agressively while the others pootle about trying not to die. I'll let you know how it goes.
Bri
-
think it's a mistake to drop the second hero. You want to play offensively? Then you need a lot of commanders who can take over if others fail. And the wizard is more or less reliable as a commander.
Interesting. I would never use the wizard for orders. I've always found that the hero is 50/50 on a single order (fails when it's important) so I tend to use the general to 'set' my line, then switch him to running the cavalry after that, which is really where the Empire fighting is done. Being critical of myslef: I guess that means I keep the cavalry concentrated. Also, not being able to use an Orb, makes this strategy a little more blunder prone.
I'll be interested to hear how it goes pw. Particularly whether the extra hero is worth the points.
-
Hi, thanks for the ideas. I'm hoping to get a game this week and I think I'll go with:
General,
Wizard
Hero on Griffon
Hero
As has been said, this command is fine. Obviously if magic items are allowed then give the SoM to the hero on a Griffon, a dispel scroll to the wizard, and I don't usually bother with any items for the general. And of course if you've painted the model, then the War Altar of Sigmar is a no-brainer for the wizard, and since its a chariot upgrade you can still take it at the WW.
4 Halberds
4 Crossbow
Personally I'd knock these both down to the minimum of 2. It saves you 200pts that you are otherwise going to pretty much just have sitting in your deployment zone doing nothing, or will be sent out and dispatched by your opponent in no time at all. Spend the points on more knights instead...
5 Knights
You want more than that if you can find the points...
2 Pistoliers
I never bother with Pistolers, as for 15pts more you can get a unit of knights which have a much higher survival rate in combat. Especially when used together with your knights, they are actually a liability in combat as your opponent can focus his initial attacks against the pistolers, therefore making it easier to take your knights out in rounds two and above of a combat...
Saying that, they might prove a useful support to a Steam Tank adding their close-range firepower. I have yet to try this tactic, but the unbrigade-ability of the ST does make using it rather tricky...
2 Flagellants[/quote]
You're only allowed one of these at 1700pts I'm afraid...
Spare points on a magic sword (I know I can't use them at the WW)
Don't forget skirmishers or the WAoS, both are handy little ways of soaking up left over points that most other armies don't have...
Anyway, where's your artillery gone? Whilst I know it can be very vulnerable to attack by enemy flyers, you can actually use this to your advantage by using your artillery to draw your opponent into comitting his flyers early in the game, therefore removing the threat that they possess to your combat brigades when things get up close and personal...
Brigages would likely be:
3 Knights
2 Knights 2 Pistoliers
2 Flagellants 2 Halberdiers
2 Crossbow 2 Halberdiers
2 Crossbow
I'd be aiming to have the top three brigades moving agressively while the others pootle about trying not to die. I'll let you know how it goes.
Bri
If you are going to take Pistolers, don't put them with your knights. As I've said pistolers actually make your knights more vulnerable to attack due to their lower saving throw. So by costing you the first round or two of combat, it then hands your opponent a bucket load of dice to take out your knights from pursuit bonuses...
My prefered cavalry arrangement is to mass them all together at the begining of the battle behind my infantry line, and then split them into two (or more, if I've got 9+ units) seperate brigades to swing around each flank, with the larger brigade being my main focus when it comes to attacking, and the smaller being there as a backup, or possibly a first wave attack.
Unless there are plenty of places for my infantry to hide, I will leave it protecting the artillery. And of course on deployment I will ensure that my artillery is at the centre of a continious line, flanked on either side by crossbowmen as they key to fighting off a first turn flyer attack is to kill as many of them as you can with S&S alone. I've actually seen HE Dragon Riders bounce off my cannons having been reduced to half-wounds in this manner before...
-
@Bri: Thanks for that reply, really interesting. I probably should have said that the WW uses the min/max from the 2000 point lists so the infantry have to stay. I take your point on the pistols. I might drop them in favour of another unit of knights and a cannon.
@Pugwash; I agree on the wizard, he's proved very unreliable in the few games I've had. In fact he's never even cast a single spell!
-
Winter Warmer army composition details ARE available 1700 pts @ 2k min/max and no MI other then dispell scroll, IIRC, but by all means check them to provide correct comments ::)
And a good Empire general is playing with a mixed forces army, and will know/find the ways to use ALL his troop (combinations) to effect.
Eg. Flagelants make an excelent missile shield to deliver your cavalry "up the middle", granted you are limiting your cavalry to 20cm moves for the first couple, but they can still go their full 30 on the order that allows them contact, diverting the Flagelants away
Eg. A unit of pistoliers grouped with knight can be peeled of to hover on the flanf of an infantry line, allowing the knight to charge in and using pistoliers to shoot at the supporting units of your target, as even a 1cm driveback will strip away support !
Eg. Any Empire infantry unit with attached skirmishers will effectivly loose one flank, or even better.... units used as artillery guards can face forward, with the skirmishers facing backward, allowing you to charge pesky incomming flyers on initiative, before they do you!
Empire = mixed forces, hard to master but once you get a grip on it, a masterfull army
for an all knights army ------------------------------------------------->> Bretonia
-
I wouldnt underestimate the pistoliers, they can be a great defensive shield for the knights with S&S, also they can shield your knights from shooting so they arrive at full strength for the charge and also they can be used as Lex said to shoot way enemy supporting stands.
And if all that fails they are equally strong like the knights allthough they wont last that long. But for flank charges they are still very efficient.
-
a good Empire general
:o
That, I think, may well be my problem! A mixed forces list is certainly my preference, party because it'll look nice and partly because I like my armies to have a few ways to play. What's really excited me in this thread is that there seem to be a number of positions on what makes for an effective Empire army and that strikes me as being a really good indication that WM is a reasonably balanced and varied game. I'm looking forward to playing some more and seeing what sort of list suits my playstyle. I might revamp my list to contain a little more variety so that I can get a better feel for the way each unit plays. Heck, maybe the steamtank will come out - perhaps I'll be able to figure out how to use it! (that and it was painted last night).
From a purely theory-master perspective, much of the debate about knights is going to be answered by the terrain used. When I come to make my own set up I'll have to give it a lot of thought because the strength to points value ratios of the various units seems to alter quite radically if you do/don't throw down a bunch of linear obstacles/woods etc.
Cheers - pw.
-
From a purely theory-master perspective, much of the debate about knights is going to be answered by the terrain used. When I come to make my own set up I'll have to give it a lot of thought because the strength to points value ratios of the various units seems to alter quite radically if you do/don't throw down a bunch of linear obstacles/woods etc.
Open any background documentation on "The Empire" and figure where your troops would be fighting 8), in general I would say Empire troops defend the Empire, so especialy where you create a themed Empire table I would expect to see some habitation on the table, scattered farms, with fields lined with walls/hedges/fences. Villages with walls, orchards, (small) streams, rivers with rivercrossings (and toll-houses). Plenty of scope for lineair terrain !
Also, consider the fluff on the empire on the numbers it brings to war, ANY empire army would be fielding WAY more infantry then knights, other then in certain circumstances where the knights are gathered in force for a special mission.
Bottom line, I would not send in my Panzers without infantry support................ 8) oh ... srry ... different game .....
-
Winter Warmer army composition details ARE available 1700 pts @ 2k min/max and no MI other then dispell scroll, IIRC, but by all means check them to provide correct comments ::)
I double checked them after posting, and since I find the card system rather fussy (as basically you need to spend at least ten minutes prior to starting play playing the card game first...), I am petitioning to have it removed in favour of just straight 2k points-match games.
I've always considered that if you really want to add flavour to a WM event, then having competitors seperate their army into a roughly 1500pt and a roughly 500pt force, and then having a paper-scissors-stone approach to the scenario played is the simplest approach. The scenarios basically just being about who deploys first, where, which of their forces and how long it takes for the rest to show up, and which table edge they do so from...
But since I don't have the time these days to even do more than two hours painting a week, I'll just settle for straight 2k games. It's not as if WM is so hideously unbalanced a game that you need extra intervention from tournie rules to make the games 'fair'...
-
Also, consider the fluff on the empire on the numbers it brings to war, ANY empire army would be fielding WAY more infantry then knights, other then in certain circumstances where the knights are gathered in force for a special mission.
True, but 45pt 6+ save infantry just isn't worth 45pts in WM. Maybe 35, or at most 40, but certainly not 45pts. You can also very easily argue the other way, and that 3/3/4+ cavalry is far too cheap at 110pts, and I also agree with that assesment. Perhaps 125pt, maybe even 130pts would be a more accurate reflection of 3/3/4+ WM cavalry on the battlefield.
But if you're going to muck about with the points costs in pretty much every army, then you shouldn't do so until the core game is also revised. And whilst our chances of getting a printed book are nigh on non-existant (unless all WM fans club together to buy a load of GW shares and force the directors to change their policy on the SG range...), revising, changing and updating and publishing an online 2nd ed. rulebook is just as likely to be devisive amongs the WM community as doing nothing about the problem. Put quite simply a rulebook that you download is just not as good or useful as a printed paper rulebook.
Now if it were presented in a format that you could get it printed and bound, well that might be a different story. I'm planning on doing this with some photo albums of our girls for my parents, aunts and uncles through iPhoto simply because its easier than mucking around with individual photo uploads, etc... So I know that getting individual copies of books printed professionally isn't actually all that expensive, but I wouldn't have the faintest idea of how to do this for an actual short of everyone having to copy and paste text and pictures onto websites that allow you to create photo albums, etc...
Anyway getting somewhat sidetracked there. Basically my point is that since the army selector determintes the army you can use effectively, the Empire amry selector does not do the job of promoting a combined arms approach to fighting a battle. The infantry element of the army is a liability with the exception of Flagellants. The Halberdiers are there simply because you have to take them, and it provides the enemy with something to kill that aren't your knights...
-
Hey Stomm, your empire selection is in the mood of the French kings in the 100 years wars :).
May Agincourt can happen in warmaster fantasy? I mean, is going to max cavalry the ever winning choice?
-
Also, consider the fluff on the empire on the numbers it brings to war, ANY empire army would be fielding WAY more infantry then knights, other then in certain circumstances where the knights are gathered in force for a special mission.
Will other Warmer armies be mindful of their respective fluff in the troops they take?
-
Hey Stomm, your empire selection is in the mood of the French kings in the 100 years wars :).
May Agincourt can happen in warmaster fantasy? I mean, is going to max cavalry the ever winning choice?
Well I tend to win more when I take 7-8 units of knights in a 2k army than when I only bring along 5-6... If you're confronted with a Chaos, Dwarf or Lizardman army that insists on sitting in forests, then push them in with your cannons, surround with knights and bring the flagellants up the rear. An opponent that hides in terrain is an opponent who has limited their tactical options and is therefore easy to envelop and take apart...
-
Also, consider the fluff on the empire on the numbers it brings to war, ANY empire army would be fielding WAY more infantry then knights, other then in certain circumstances where the knights are gathered in force for a special mission.
Will other Warmer armies be mindful of their respective fluff in the troops they take?
Well I'm in two minds about whether to max out on my infantry or not actually. As I have already said the route to victory, especially a quick one with Empire is to max out with knights and support with artillery and a small helping of infantry. However for a challenge at the one-day tournie at the Civil Service Club in London in August I decided to field 10 units of Halberdiers, and only 4 units of knights with rather mixed results. One thing was certain, only taking two heroes with this many units wasn't really good enough. I ended up with at least one or two brigades each game doing pretty much nothing. The Empire army is very command inefficient, as you cannot even contemplate commanding with your wizards beyond the 1st turn, and really their job is to be about 30cm away from your line trying to cast fireballs...
-
I would say that it all comes down to what your prefered playstyle is.
In the early years of WM a buddy of mine played Empire. He used all kinds of tactics and all kind of different army lists, but only came out with a Draw against my Chaos horde once. All other battles were losses.
The main "wrong" he did was that he had a lot of characters and that they made those command rolls, so he eagerly could move alot of his army around my flanks and such. Naturally the Chaos horde were always able the counter charge and that made him in return unable to counter charge due to that his first orders made his first wave brigades move so far away from the armys main body.
Conclusion, he had to change style or change army.
He started a Dwarf list and, with some change in tactics of course, he has only lost once or twice since then.
About brigade vs character, I usually calculate that 2 characters should be able to command 3 brigades. This partly depending on what kind of brigade/task and which characters that are combined.
-
About brigade vs character, I usually calculate that 2 characters should be able to command 3 brigades. This partly depending on what kind of brigade/task and which characters that are combined.
That just about does it, assuming that you are talking about cmd8 characters. O&G's when used effectively have smaller brigades and almost a 1:1 character:brigade ratio, but then they're commanding with loads of cmd7 boggo heroes, sorcerers and the like.
The main problem that I have with Empire, and for that matter other human armies command structure is that compared to almost every other army it is very expensive, but is less effective for the points you pay. Taking the example of a 'standard' 2k army, you'd be mad not to max out on wizards, and if you want to do anything more than just sit in your deployment zone you're going to need at least two heroes, or more if you go infantry-heavy as I found out in August. So characters alone at 2k you are talking about 375pts, obviously without magic items or other upgrades. Compare this to a Chaos army, and thanks to their sorcerers having cmd8, then you're only looking at spending 305pts for pretty much the same level of command flexibility, just make sure that you order your cavalry with your general, and many chaos spells have a long range and do not require LoS IIRC so to use their magic effectively they don't need to hover around the enemy army as much as Empire wizards do.
Consider Dwarfs, and more importantly High Elves, and well it gets even worse... Although the increase in the HE general's cost does bring the minimum cost into line with the Empire, thanks to the HE general's command of 10, and of course the HE Mage's prodigious magical abilities and you can see that you are still getting an awful lot more 'bang for your buck' than with the Empire, and for that matter Brettonian or Kislev command structures...
As to how to address this imbalance? Well removing cmd8 wizards from the game altogether would be a good start...
-
I have to say I never saw that as a problem. With my bretonnians I always take 1 general, 2 heroes and 2 enchantresses in a 2k game and I am pretty happy with that.
The wizards with cmd8 suffer from the 20cm command restriction and also they come for twice the cost. 2 wizards in an highelf army are 180 points for that amount I get 2 enchantresses and a hero and have even 10p left.
-
The wizards with cmd8 suffer from the 20cm command restriction and also they come for twice the cost. 2 wizards in an highelf army are 180 points for that amount I get 2 enchantresses and a hero and have even 10p left.
Yes, but two wizards in a HE army have more or less the same command and magical capacity, in fact more magical capacity and two wizards and two heroes in an Empire or Bret army, and for 70pts less...
-
A small example of Empire-costs and what you get for it:
For 45p you get access to VoiceOfCommand.
For 15p more you make that "command" on 4+. Once. (WarAltar)
For 30p more you make it automatically. Once. (RingOfMagic)
(all above are from the old rule-book)
So, in my opinion, the other wizards are not underprized or "over-the-top".
The "effective range" of the Command is up to 60cm.
Let the wizard move to a spot that is within 30cm of your armys main body and within 30cm of the Knight unit you moved around the enemys flank during the Command phase. Sim-sala-bim!
At least this is the way I have lost Chaos Knights and the like before learning the right manoeuvres.
And now I hope no one disagrees when I say that "the Command" is a game winner. The game winner.
Note: the Command is not a "line-of-sight" spell.
My 50 öre.
-
your right, command is the winner, but not magic.
You can do nothing against given orders by chars, but you can use a dispell against spells.
I prefer better command values on my chars, then spells.
-
Don't forget that a single unit of knights, whilst deadly, is nothing compared to four units of knights, etc...
-
I agree with my forespeakers.
And I agree totally with you, wmchaos: Command is the Winner!
Mostly a good/bad luck dice roll at combat or shooting does not win/lose you the game. But the command rolls at the moment you're just in front of the opponent or when you want to counter charge the enemy amidst your ranks... those rolls do decide!
Greetings,
Gerald