Specialist Arms Forum
Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Discussion => Topic started by: lilith on October 07, 2009, 09:31:41 AM
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hy i've my orc army since 5 years but for lack of players and time i never do a match with them , now i've some time to begin paint them and wanna try to intro some of my friend to this game. I 've choosed an army that from people opinion isn't really competitive or simple tu use , so can you give me some help on use them , on unit to put on list ecc ecc. For example i really like the minis of the troll but the -1 command is really a pain in the ass , are they worth their points? If i want to use them regardless of utility what is the best use and placement for them? is the giant worth 150? what are the use for goblin? brigade them with rock lobber to guard the warmachine is a good idea?
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I too have just started my Orc force.
In relation to troop types cavalry are the best points wise.
I have used trolls in my chaos force and they are never that much use.
I do know that Rick Priestley always plays these at the winter warmer, but that being said he does finish towards the bottom of the table ;)
You could always use them to make the green kislev army.
Lex is the man to talk about this but basically you match your orc and gobbos to the troop types on the kislev list, thereby giving you a 'free' army. There are also alternative orc lists in the trial armies book that is a free web download http://sites.google.com/site/wmplaytest/.
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Wayne swears by taking hordes of heroes and small brigades. Also he rather sensibly leaves his trolls at home...
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Dave - That was an uncommonly brief response for you..... ;)
To expand on Stomm's comment a bit, Wayne is a fellow who goes by the name of Ullgityer on these boards but who doesn't seem to have posted anything in a while. He's been playing Orcs since the WM rules first came out and has mentored us all in Orc tactics over the years. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any of his treatises on the subject just now. In a nutshell, though, since the maximum Command value in the Orc army is an 8, he recommends taking as many commanders as possible and creating a like number of brigades. This is done in the hope that you will be able to at least move something each turn and therefore be able to keep the attack going. He is also recommends maxing out on Shamans and is a great proponent of the Gerrroff! spell (that it, use it AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE).
Brigading Goblins with a Rock Lobber is a good idea as it will provide stand&shoot attacks that the Lobber itself doesn't have. This is especially useful early in the game since the only things that can usually get at the Lobber in the first 2-3 turns are Flyers. Goblins are also good second rank support troops for your Orc Warriors. Trolls are hard for the Orc army to use since the BEST command roll you're going to have for them is a 7. Still, they're a nice looking unit which it is hard to not want to use. If used, best to set them some somewhere that they may be able to charge on initiative later in the game - perhaps somewhere near the Lobber. For five points less, you may be better off with Ogres. The Giant is a really cool unit that can give your opponent fits (especially if your opponent is me!). Well worth the 150 point cost. Boar Riders are an excellent unit (as azrael points out) and, with their 4 attacks, Orc Warriors are pretty good as well. Black Orcs are one of the better infantry units in the game and are priced accordingly. It can be frustrating to watch them stand there and do nothing because you can't get them to move! I've not had much luck with Wolf Chariots either, but I keep running them out there because I like the way they look - plus, the concept of wolf chariots just appeals to me. Wolf Riders can be very useful for shooting at your opponents support troops, driving them out of support position.
When things go well, the Orc army can be really fun to use. When they go badly it makes for a quick game.
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Hi,
I am vey agree with all said here. Some tips based in my own experience as waagh general:
- use goblins to guard defended positions like hills or forest.
- Do not make sofisticated plans before battle, those little green dudes will break them to pieces, so just make an initial idea and change it during the battle... it is like a zen mood.
- My impression to manage this army is that you only need to move the army close to the enemy and then they do the rest (iniciative charges).
- if you are going to attack with goblins do it with brigades of 4 of them. If the unit is attacked by an stronger unit sometimes is better sacrifice the first row do not making path, and forcing to spend its advance... and then countercharge with the rest of the brigade trying to flank the enemy... use them in great numbers.
Well here is my positive experience... but I warn you that I have little success with this army... so take my advices with care. Anyway, I love green army
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Dave - That was an uncommonly brief response for you..... ;)
I tend not to waffle so much these days unless I think that I've got something concrete to add to a discussion. Or of course I just fancy confusing the pants off everyone... ;)
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umh interesting , another question if i put two goblin unit with 2 lob lobber in this way:
g1g1g2g2 g1g1g1g2g2g2
g1LoLog2 or LoLo
can i see with the rock lobber ? and shoot to enemy on my same level? on lover level? is this a good formation to deploy my lobbers in a 2 k game?
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when you use ANY kind of artillety guard remember that you WILL be more or less restricted to the artillery move-distance, so any accompanying infantry shoud at LEAST have one stand facing backwards (to give you the initiative charge on those nasty flyers in the backfield. This is where Empire skirmishers come into their own !!
Also remember that you can ONLY "overshoot" friendly troops when your arty is on a higher level !!
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so in the example i've writed i can't shoot with lobber? you mean is better to postition the stand of goblin in the back facing the rear ?
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so in the example i've writed i can't shoot with lobber? you mean is better to postition the stand of goblin in the back facing the rear ?
you could if the lobber is on HIGHER terrain
yeah, with one stand facing backwards you can only move the unit 10 cm on orders, but that is the same as arty, so no loss.... and if ANY flyers drop in behind your arty for a NEXT turn charge you get the jump on them with an initiative charge of the gobs!! which allows a FULL distance move, even from irregular formation !!!
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interesting tactic , if him put the stand on my flank? i can see with the gobbo and charge or is blind spot?
like this
Fly g1g1g2g2
Fly g1LoLog2
Fly ! !
v v
The arrow is for the direction of back gobbo stands
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"A unit is assumed to be able to see another if it is possible to draw an uninterrupted line of sight between ther FRONT edge of any stand and any stand in the other unit. It is not possible to see through unit stands from either side ,or terrain other than low features such as low obstacles, rivers/steams etc. Characters never block line of sight" (page 22 in moveing by initiative section)
I hope this respond your question. If there is some doubt, i think could be great to make (with a image editor) a scheme to explain where is facing the front edge of stand of your units.
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ok this week i think i can make a game vs the dwarf of my cousin , i think we play 1k for learn the rules ,with amylist is better to field vs little guys? i think some like this:
general 95
2* orc hero 160
3*goblin 90
2* chariot 160
1 wolf riders 60
4*orc 240
1 boar boyz +sword of might 120 (10 point and don't know what to do with them)
1 rock lobber 75
i think 3 people with 8 ld is enough at 1k point , what you think?
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The firing overhead rule works both ways. So blocking the LoS for your artillery by placing a unit directly in front of it is a very good way of being able to target enemy units on other levels, for example to take out enemy artillery that has been placed on a hill...
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uhm good idea stomm , and for the list any comment? you think is good vs dwarf?
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@Stomm: I disagree. If you have an artillery unit with another unit (on the same level) directly in front of it the artillery cannot draw any line of sight - so may not shoot at all. Not even at units at higher levels.
@armylist: I am not really an orc veteran. But my impression is you should leave away the rock lobber as it won't have too much effect at 1k points. The number of characters for 3 brigades is definitely enough.
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@Stomm: I disagree. If you have an artillery unit with another unit (on the same level) directly in front of it the artillery cannot draw any line of sight - so may not shoot at all. Not even at units at higher levels.
Artillery stands can shoot over the top of intervening terrain or troops on the same or higher level if the target is on a higher level still.
If you carry on reading the relevant rule you will note that at no point does it mention that intervening troops that happen to be flush with the front edge of your artillery unit somehow over-rides the SoH rule. Of course you cannot use such a formation to shoot at units lower down, it only works when shooting at enemy units on a higher level, the classic example being the one I mentioned, or of course to shoot at troops in a fortress rather than screening troops set in front of them, etc...
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uhm other opinion on list? lobber out? lobber in?
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My advice would be to leave the lobber out. As has been said above, one lobber is not that effective. You can use the point savings to get another unit of orcs, which would be more effective and durable.
One unit of wolf riders may not be all that effective by itself either. You could drop that and the 3rd goblin unit and get another unit of boar boys. I think the math works out. If it doesn't, just drop the magic item.
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Hey lilith, don't forget to post how had gone the battle against the the dwarfs! 8)
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If you carry on reading the relevant rule you will note that at no point does it mention that intervening troops that happen to be flush with the front edge of your artillery unit somehow over-rides the SoH rule.
"A stand must be able to see its target to shoot at it. It is assumed to be able to see if an unobscured line of sight can be drawn from its front base edge to the target's base. Sight is obscured by [...] other units"
How can you draw a line of sight if another stand is standing flush with your front edge?..
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Yes, but the firing overhead rule is a clear exception to this, otherwise you would not be able to fire overhead at all. Since your own unit is clearly ineligible as a target, whether it is flush to your front edge, or 1cm away all it does is ensure that no other targets at the same level as your firing artillery unit are eligible as it blocks LoS to that level. It does not block LoS to enemy units that are on a higher level.
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ok we played so i bring this army : general 2 * hero 2 *wolf rider 2* chariot 4*orc warrior 2* goblin 1*giant
my cousin use some paper proxy and use 2 thunderer 1 cannon 1general 1 hero 3 warrior 1 berseker.
The field have 4 woods 2 hills and anear the centre village (we use it as impassable blocking los)i placed all the scenic outside of deploy zone (i a right way to place scenery?) and 2 wood each side and 1 hill each side.
i brigade 1goblin+2orc , 2orc +1 gob , giant alone , 2chariot +2 wolf (here maybe i think i deply wrong them because the have a little different task , what you think?)
my cousin won the roll to begin and let me begin (is this correct? who won the dice can choose start first or no?) 1 inf brigade advance and also the giant but chariot and the other inf brigade fail. the dwarf have 2 great brigade one with 1 thunder 1 warrior 1 berserker the other with 2 warrior 1 cannon 1thunder .
He advance with the 2 brigades and place some units in woods. My second turn giant advance again and also chariot and one inf brigade , the other inf that move first tunr instead fail.With his 2 turn he shot and move 2 cm rear the giant and some other cm one unit of chariot and 1 wolf ( if my brigade have some unit not in the same line , but in contact with side edge it still can move as a brigade? or now they are 2 brigade of 2 unit each?)
Now i'm near charge range so i try to use the giant i succes one order and i put him near thundere on wood and on side , then i fail the order but with the roll on the giant table i roll a 6 and i charge thunderer on the side, other stuf come nearer (one inf brigade as usually fail) the giant won a couple of round but on third he draw so the last stand of thunderer can escape (damn 2 hit remain)the berser make way but remain confused. Now the giant is insde a wood and the dwarf haven't los on him.he first try to move the warrior on position to view giant , and with the second order he charge the giant the other stuff shoot and kill a stand of orc and put them back outside of brigade. Now he makes a move that is wrong in my opinion (tell me i mistake) , he put the general inside the warrior to give assist on the giant (i tell him that the stand with the general die he lose th match , but he tell want to test).At the end of the combat (3 round maybe) we draw and giant was badly hurt (4 hit taken) and only the stand with general remain (warrior are really though but i rolled bad on first round so i can't won and pursue ).the giant fall back in the wood again without los (inside a wood the los for charge is 2 cm right? or for charge don't count?)
My turn again , this time i leave the giant in the wood because i used all the order to move my inf near combat , with the chariot brigade i can charge his 2 unit of warrior (he advance them in the 2 turn but do a little mistake , he exit from the wood and then give me the opportunity to charge its side) with a lucky roll (the second order needed to charge was on 6) 1 wolf boyz reach his side and 1 chariot sees its front and charge it (we done right? he have 2 war unit attached so i charged the rear one leaving los to the chariot to see the front ; they have to do on front or doing a corner to corner charge on the side?).
With a really luck roll from me (with the magic item on chariotand wolf i roll 25 attack and hit 18.....) i do 7 or 9 wound ( i don't remember) and take 2 hit on chariot and 2 hit on the wolf(he have the other hero inside the warrior so have a little help) , i won the combat (i remember that flankked or reared stand can't be supported right?) pursue and there we have a problem the falll back movement put the warrior in a postion where the wolf boy can't pursue the side but only the front( the wood was to near and haven't enough gap) so we do the pursuit with the 2 unit on the front (we did right?) , with the pursuit bonus i rolled again a mass of dice and this time hit normally but he hit very poor and so i leave only 1 stand of one unit and 2 (one with 3 hit) of the other , i lost 1 chariot and one wolf. Last round i kille the dwarf and lost a wolf. now i've killed 2 unit and leaved other 2 of him to only one stand.His turn he decided to turn the slayer in direction of my chariot and wolf (the one that killed warrior) pass the 2 order required and charge chariot killing them and adavancing on the lone wolf also killing him , i only do 3 hit that leave dwarf untouched.With his shoot he kill another orc stand and put a little back the remained chariot and wolf mini brigade. My turn again i moved one the inf brigade in charge range and again with a 6 on secodn order i finally charged cannon and thunderer wiping them out (the thunderer was near killing 2 orc stand and 2 hit on the last) and giving me the victory. in my opinion he have to field a gyrocopter even at 1k point what did you think? he can give me some problem on giving orders right?
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my cousin won the roll to begin and let me begin (is this correct? who won the dice can choose start first or no?)
That is correct, there where you roll-off the one winning to roll gets to pick sequence
( if my brigade have some unit not in the same line , but in contact with side edge it still can move as a brigade? or now they are 2 brigade of 2 unit each?)
The only determinant is that units are in contact. Corner-to-edge is also contact
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ok thanks lex and for the other question inside the battlereport what did you say?
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Lilith, the only comment I can really think of with regards to your list is that it seems to lack spell casters. The 'Gerroff' spell is it seems pretty much central to every good O&G general's battle plan. O&G's do move in a much less coordinated manner than other armies due to the low command of their general, but this can be pretty much equalised by using magic to disrupt the opposing army's formations, especially their high value-high impact units such as knights, etc... Likewise O&G's have a missile spell that seems almost designed to take out enemy artillery IIRC...
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Lilith interesting report! Well, I see, good for the greenskins!. I see you put the Giant in woods, and I believe that the monsters can not enter there.
Next time report, you could separete the parragraphs as it is quite difficult to read.
Maybe it is better you numerate your questions out of the Report text, to get a properly feedback.
Any way exciting battle!
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right giant can' enter wood next time i've to remember , for the caster we play only 1k point we agred to non use wizard because if he use one runesmith i think i can' t do much spell. with 1,5k or 2 k point then i think i field 2 or 3/4 shaman to have some change of do something against dwarf.in a 2 k games for charact i was thinking in that 1 general 3 orc hero 2 gob sham and 1 or 2 orc shaman what you think?
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from my short experience it looks like its worth packing many characters in orc army and definitely shamans of any sort as my opponents hate geroff! spell :)
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if i can't pursue the side but only the front with 2 unit ( for example the wood was to near and haven't enough gap) i can pursuit with the 2 unit on the front ?
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@ Shooting in different levels: As I see in a normal battle a unit always block line of sight. Going into siege and fortress chapter:
"If a player wishes to shoot at fortifications he can ignore the normal targeting rules and may shoot where he wants to within the normal limitations of range and sight. If you wish to shoot at troops that are on the ramparts of walls or towers then the normal shooting rules apply and no account is made of damage on the wall or tower itself." (page 91 siege section)
According with the rules you cannot shoot to higher level with your LoS blocked:
"Artillery stands can shoot over any obstacles including friendly stands, that occupy lower ground than the shooter or target" (page 67 artillery and machines section)
I do not know if there are changes of these rules in other rules versions
@ lilith about the pursuit: I can not imagine exactly the situation. There is a thread in the section of warmaster rules about charge and pursit (quite long but very interesting) that helps me to understand how to make the pursits correctly. Maybe will be interesant for you to read it. Or make a scheme with some image editor to answer you properly.
http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/forum/index.php?topic=38.0
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According with the rules you cannot shoot to higher level with your LoS blocked:
Yes you can.
"Artillery stands can shoot over any obstacles including friendly stands, that occupy lower ground than the shooter or target" (page 67 artillery and machines section)
You see the obstacle has to occupy lower ground than the shooter or target. If it merely said that obstacles had to occupy lower ground than the shooter, then your interpretation would be correct, but that is not what it says.
I do not know if there are changes of these rules in other rules versions
Thus far there have been no changes to the firing overhead rules, much to the annoyance of some people who would prefer to see reciprocal shooting and charging LoS, especially with regard to flyer LoS. But then if that happened, then flyers really would become very powerful indeed, as a dragon on a hill would literally be able to charge pretty much anything on the table. And a dragon can do a heck of a lot more damage than a unit or two of cannons, which after all would still be required to shoot at the closest target anyway, unlike an ordered charge from a flyer unit...
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You see the obstacle has to occupy lower ground than the shooter or target. If it merely said that obstacles had to occupy lower ground than the shooter, then your interpretation would be correct, but that is not what it says.
Stomm, you are right. Now I see it clear. Then I was playing wrong. Thanks for clarifying.
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@Shooting: Maybe we just should use examples.
Let's take a unit of cannons standing upon a one-plain-hill. The next enemy unit (Chaos Marauders) is standing upon a two-plain-hill 40cm away (at the edge of the upper plain).
A) A unit of crossbowmen is standing in front of the cannons on ground level.
The cannon may clearly shoot at the Marauders or at enemy units on ground level if they are nearer.
B) A unit of crossbowmen is standing in front of the cannons 4cm away on the same level.
The cannon may shoot at the Marauders if it can draw a line of sight.
C) A unit of crossbowmen is standing directly in front of the cannons totally covering and touching all front edges of the cannons.
The cannon may not shoot at all as no area of their front edge is free.
Greetings,
Gerald
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B) A unit of crossbowmen is standing in front of the cannons 4cm away on the same level.
The cannon may shoot at the Marauders if it can draw a line of sight.
Assuming that the cannons are indeed facing said marauders, then they can draw line of sight to themdue to the firing overhead rules, and that of course is assuming that the crossbowmen aren't completely blocking LoS to any nearer targets at the same or lower level, and for that matter that the marauders are the closest eligible target.
C) A unit of crossbowmen is standing directly in front of the cannons totally covering and touching all front edges of the cannons.
The cannon may not shoot at all as no area of their front edge is free.
By that logic a stand doing S&S cannot fire once contacted, but it clearly states that such shooting may occur at any point during the charger's move. Which is of course why flank charged missile units stil get their full S&F, even if the charger started off behind the 180degree firing arc.
Basically all that unit of crossbowmen is doing as far as the FoH rules are concerned is acting as an object to be fired over. Whether they are flush with the front edge of the unit, 1cm or 10cm away makes no difference at all.
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So we agree in two out of three.
Let's leave it there and close this discussion - it's out of topic anyway.
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how many orc and goblin unit is good to deploy at 2k ? the minimum (4 and 4) or maybe add some other unit to increase break point? i think for 60 point orc unit is good ,and the army cavalry isn't too much tough (max 5+ save ) but maybe more offensive.
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boar boyz are great while attacking, I personally had them i na brigade of 3 units recently and they did quite good.
Also my personal recomendations is having two rock lobbers for 2k pts.
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I love Orcs and Goblins - I rarely win with them but they are always fun to play. You need to expect them to spend half the game refusing to move (squabbling) - as long as you are happy to mentally visualise this and accept it, they are a great army. I tend to buy lots of goblins just for the break point and hang them well back from the line of battle (defending the rock lobbers if I buy any).
I always max out on Orc Warriors and Boar Boys - I have 12 units of each of these and if they can go in in a semi coherent block then expect a big mess!
I use the Wolf Boys to try and protect flanks and to expoit any gaping holes (not always with success). This is an army that I think stands a better chance with the higher end size of games (3K+). Smaller games, it is too easy to be flanked or rolled up just because a couple of brigades refused to move at a critical juncture.
Oh, and Giants............ They are a bit like elephants in the ancient world - they can win you the game or do very little!
Just my two penneth
Dave
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I use the Wolf Boys to try and protect flanks and to expoit any gaping holes (not always with success). This is an army that I think stands a better chance with the higher end size of games (3K+). Smaller games, it is too easy to be flanked or rolled up just because a couple of brigades refused to move at a critical juncture.
Oh, and Giants............ They are a bit like elephants in the ancient world - they can win you the game or do very little!
Just my two penneth
Dave
This is one of the interesting things about army balance -- the larger the army, the less the difference between the elf general's command of 10 and the Orc General's command of 8... (Or maybe the greater the elf's temptation to max out dragon riders just to maximize the general's impact).