Specialist Arms Forum
Specialist Games General Discussion => Modeling & painting => Topic started by: industrialtrousers on November 15, 2016, 10:46:28 AM
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Howdy
I've got ahead of myself and bought some silicone rubber and resin for casting before I've got anything to cast.
The idea was that I would model some ranked beastmen and then cast them up.
I'll give it a go when I get a clear weekend but does anyone have any experience of casting in resin at 10mm? Does it work out OK or am I going to be wasting both my time and resin?
To be honest I'll probably try something a bit larger like a wall section first but figured this would be the place to ask if anyone had tried it.
Cheers
P
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Hey. That sounds interesting. Do you have any experience in casting in resin?
I once was a "crazy caster" myself. I casted almost everything that I needed, except the core units. I only bought GW stuff to create the molds and resold the originals afterwards. That was in my "f*** you GW" time. It was pretty satisfying being able to build loads of Ork Gargbots for me and my friends, without shoving one single cent into GW's throat or having an endless amount of giant rats for my Skaven army, without buying those ridiculous small an overpriced rat pack boxes. Well, honestly all the additional work never really compensated the saved money. But hey. It felt so darn good to be independent.:D
I can't say if it works well for 10mm figures. It depends on different factors. Resin is excellent for casting high details. Standard resin is very hard but it is also very brittle. That makes casting thin and fragile elements, like long spears and stuff, very difficult. They are generally prone to break. I know that there is more flexible resin available but I never found anything comparable to plastic or white metal. I highly recommend making two sided molds. That reduces the damage to the molds and the cast and makes removing the cast easier. One big problem is pouring the resin into the mold without any bubbles. Make sure the resin reaches even he last corner of your mold. That's even harder the more complex and detailed your figures are. I had a method that helped me reducing bubbles to almost zero. I brushed the first layer of resin with a small old brush into the mold, covering all the fine details and fragile parts. I let the first layer harden a little bit. Not too much, only to make sure that the resin stays in place and doesn't flow. Then I put the two sided molds together and filled it with fresh resin.
I'd say give it a try since you have the silicone ant he resin anyway. I'd love to see the progress.
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Great stuff MaWo. No experience whatsoever as yet and I traditionally learn the hard way. I'll crack on with getting a few walls knocked up in sculpey over the next week and a test run before trying the finer stuff. The only promise I can make here is progress will be slow.
I had a vague idea when I bought the casting kit of making modular style buildings so I could create a town/city and have street fights & barricades but it might be too much work for a scenario which could get a bit tired pretty quick. Might be one for the paper buildings.
More later....
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Went a wee bit off mission after getting a few of these made and baked. I decided that they probably wouldn't cast well so I painted them. I'm in the process of making some sturdy walls which I imagine will cast better. Time will tell.
I'm happy with how they've turned out. I've tried to make them a wee bit fantastic by adding in some character details but the photos don't do much for them. For example the front left has a short row of skulls but the angle doesn't really expose them.
Loving the super sculpey. Brilliant stuff to work with. If you sculpt and haven't given it a try then I would thoroughly recommend doing so.
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Bollocks. Forgot to add the second photo.
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I dig these! Definitely closer to the Warhammer 28mm scale wall plastics they used to have, which is a good thing.
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Big thumbs up from me! They look great.
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Very nicely done! The walls in the second post look almost Albion themed. They do look as though they could be relatively simple to cast, perhaps using plaster (fairly runny) for an economy test- might be worth a go.
Also when you've got your mold fill it with water, you'll see some bubbles clinging to the interior which you can then tease off with a brush. Empty the water out and let the mold dry. This can slightly reduce the bubbling when using resin or plaster, also give the table you're working on a few good thumps soon after you pour the plaster or resin into the mold - helps to dislodge trapped air early on in the curing process.
Cool stuff, looking forward to seeing more.
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I've knocked up a couple of walls so hopefully I'll get to making an RVC mold this weekend, if the varnishing of the household stairs doesn't get in the way.
On a related matter: has anyone ever heard of using Alginate as a mold?
I was reading this atricle https://davidneat.wordpress.com/2012/11/09/casting-polyurethane-resin-into-alginate/ (https://davidneat.wordpress.com/2012/11/09/casting-polyurethane-resin-into-alginate/) and the picture at the bottom of the post reveals that the Alginate shrinks quite a lot on drying.
I'm (over-)thinking that masters could therefore be made larger (20mm/25mm) keeping in mind the shrinkage of the mold. That way you could add in details to the figure with greater ease and then let the mold scale it down for you. The trial and error here would take a while as there's a few factors to consider. Makes me which I'd paid more attention at mathematics.
Maybe fantasy figures aren't the best for this, might be more use for the BFG boys.
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4 bits of fence for pink bits.
The rtf silicone rubber went in this afternoon and looks just about dry. It'll give it the 24 hours to be sure Seamus.
Probably didn't put enough mould release in the but we'll see tomorrow.
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Tried this this morning and a perfect reproduction.
Righto. On to something more challenging.
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Watching this with interest.
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And always put you silicone on a flat surface to dry. &^$%&*(*"£$%&^&.
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Bunch of fences/hedges tec fresh out of the mould. Very happy with how these turned out and feel they're saleable quality. The best thing is that knowing I can create a decent facsimile in resin makes spending time on the masters infinitely more worthwhile.
I also tried to make a mould for a stand of minis but made a few schoolboy errors casting with it so far and no success. Nothing further this month but I will be looking into some sort of modular building outfit once I've nutted out the angles.
MaWo - the resin I've got doesn't really allow you to coat tricky corners first as it sets pretty fast. Good thing is that you can whip it out of the mould in 15 minutes but it's still a little bit soft. Must leave small items longer.
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After a bit of trial and error - I'm not happy with the casting quality of the 10mm. There's still probably a couple of attempts left in me but frankly I'm not holding out much hope. They might be better in pewter but that'll be a while away, if ever.
I've started the first beastman (photo coming) but I can't seem to reconcile the dynamism of the poses I want with something that will cast so I'll probably look to buying in rather than casting them up. I'd love to sort out some dollies to cut down on the workload - maybe the resin might work for that.
I'm hoping to start on some buildings when I've worked out how these can be made in some sort of modular fashion. I don't want to cast them as a solid block. I know they're pretty small but resin still costs a bit and if I can get the design right then you could clip bits out and stack them in different ways. What I want to get to is a 10-12 part kit (walls-downstairs, walls for an upper floor(s), a roof, chimney, dormer, doors, windows) that you can adjust/clip/modify with a minimum of fiddle and green-stuffing to create something bonkers enough to be worthy of a fantasy world which isn't constrained by local govt building laws.
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This is my process:
I mount the figures with hot glue on a strip of plasticard and then to cardboard and then build a topless cardboard box around them using a long strip of cardboard scored three times and glued end-to-end. The strip of plasticard is about 1/16" wide and 1/4" tall, and acts as a sprue. I leave about 1/4" between the figure and the box, and extend the box 1/2" taller than the figure.
I then mix up some Mold Star 20T (http://www.reynoldsam.com/product/mold-star-20t/) and quickly de-gas it in a vacuum desiccator with a vacuum pump. That pulls the bubbles from mixing out, it'll rise quickly and a big bubble will pop when its done. After that (~45 seconds) I pour it into the box slow and high, starting in a corner (not directly over the figure).
The box then goes in a paint pressure pot and gets put under 30-45PSI for an hour to let it cure. Once that's done, it comes out and I cut the figure out from the bottom, making a clam shell out of the rubber.
To cast, I pour in Smooth Cast 305 (http://www.reynoldsam.com/product/smooth-cast-300/) and put it in the paint pressure pot under 30-45PSI while it cures.
The end result is pretty crisp with no bubbles, assuming you have vents where they need to be.
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Thanks very much for the detailed response Dave. I was making a two part mould which might have made things more difficult than they really needed to be. The clam approach will be worth a try.
I'll have a look around for some vacuum equipment and see what they have over here & if I have enough space for it. We're not blessed with the wide open spaces of the new world here which can make things a bit tricky.
Anyway beast man started. Legs if nothing else. His axe will get cut off as a seperate piece.
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Mmm head is too short. No neck. It seems strange.
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A neck eh? It's a novel approach. I think you might be right there.
Hopefully I'll get into this in Jan as I'm over in Provence for the festives. I'd take the putty with me but security might conclude it's something other than what I tell them and it's too cold for a cavity search.
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I think looking strange is good for chaos army! Ye olde WFB3 Realm of Chaos Slaves to Darkness had a chaos mutation of long neck, so why not have no neck as another mutation?
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how about this interestig project? still progressing?
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Not a great unfortunately jchaos. I've cast all the walls I'll ever need and done a window and a door in sculpey. The beastmen bloke is just finished but I'll need to redo the head as I'm not happy with it. It won't cast though as the pose its not cast friendly. Magister pannites also came in at the right so I won't need to cast beastmen. I'd still like to work out how to a strip but haven't got the knack yet.
I've got about enough rtv left for one mould so I wasn't too try Dave's clam method on some dwarfs.
I've been distracted making a Treeman for the monthly painting challenge which is just about finished.
Ill take some photos of bits tonight.
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Howdy, I've got a ton of experience casting in resin. 2 part molds, split molds(clamshell) as well as single molds. I was wondering if you use talc or Johnson and Johnson baby powder in your mold after your mold release dries, it will wick the resin into the cracks it helps get closer to perfect casts with lower detail items you won't even need pressure to cast. As far as the beastman not being castable could you please post a picture of it from different angles I bet I can cast and would not mind giving you advice. Would hate to waste a sculpt, also if your not happy with the head clip it off put a small ball their and cast it for use as an armature for your strip beastment. I would love to get my hands on some beastmen armatures.
Blind-
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Blind - For the wall mold I haven't been using any release agent nor talc and it doesn't seems to cause any problem. I don't use any pressure when casting with this at all but can see how fine pointed details would need a bit of a hand with both release and vacuum.
It takes me ages to do anything as soldiers have to take their place in my world and it's not very high up the ladder. I'd love to have more time for it. I'll get back on the sculpting shortly and try to get a few beast men together. Let's see what I can get done by the end of the month. I'd be happy to get 5 together and will be looking to the old 3rd edition Warhammer stuff get to a bit more variation than the generic goatman. The shelf life of the RTV is only until end March apparently so there's an incentive.
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Good work mate. I've been doing a fair amount of casting using, what looks like, exactly the same stuff as you're using. Although I mainly use 2 part moulds for my bitz n bobs.
I have looked at getting the professionals to cast my stuff up before though and it doesn't actually work out that bad. About £20 for the mould and a couple of quid for a set. Although this is for 54mm models so you might find it's cheaper for your to do.
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I've had a go at making a mold for some off the shelf strips and it was not successful. It was disappointing.
I'll try adding talc on another run when I get some in. I need to inject resin into the mold or get a vaccum organised - but not sure if it's worth the hassle and expense. Also the resin cures pretty quickly which help me much. Metal might be better for minis. The resin is pretty brittle which doesn't help.
Larger items, like the walls, seem to work for me so I'll get another batch of silicone when I've sculpted all the building bits.
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Can't believe I haven't looked at this for such a long time!
Personally I think that the very small scale stuff casts best in metal, frankly it's runnier than any two part resin or plastic mix (in my experience that is, I had some epic resin Tau which were frankly a joke). The trouble is you need some serious starting investment with the big high pressure machine to make the casting disk mould and then there's the centrifugal spinner and melting pot - and metal. That said, most of these machines are pretty hard wearing and you'd get at least 200 casts from a mould (I know that some moulds have been running for 30 years!). If I had the dough, I'd do it in a heartbeat but that's probably because I'm a bit old fashioned and prefer metal to resin or plastic.
I think your beastie has a lot of promise, sure there are a couple of things not quite to your satisfaction but part of the freedom of sculpting is the ability to subtract and then add until it looks right. Also, if you haven't got one already, a digital micrometer is amazingly helpful (and very cheap) - like in drawing, accurate measuring is probably the most powerful tool (and if you get it a bit off, like me, it still looks ok).
Something that I found useful when starting to sculpt one piece miniatures, was looking through my collection of older figures from the 80s and 90s (as well as some of the simpler Rackham figures) since these were almost exclusively one piece metal casts. The range of poses from Dwarf Trollslayers to Eldar Harlequins cover pretty much every pose you would need. Lots of 15mm ranges also tend to be one piece casts (with the exception normally being alternative heads) and a quick look at pictures of ancients, wwII and beyond should provide plenty of references. There are common elements which recur in miniature sculpting because they work, you'll start to recognise it and it'll become instinctive so just enjoy the making!
I look forward to seeing your latest work.
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I'm with you on the metal. There's something more satisfying about the weight that I can't quite fathom. The resin molds I've attempted lead me to believe it's always going to be a bit tricky without the proper kit as others here have pointed out.
I'm making a bunch of dryads/treekin at the moment. Slowly scaling them down from the first one which started life as a Treeman who was a bit small. I'll post up some pictures over the weekend. Also keep an eye out for a micrometer.
There's some bloke out west who had a course on casting. I might have to see if I can find the info. You get one of your Arabian blokes cast up didn't you?
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I am very, very interested to see how your dryads look.
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Works in progress. The gray head fell off so it's been redone. These are bigger than some of made since and not great photos.
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Nice!
I had bought the "tree spirit" nymph like figures from Fanticide that Eureka made but they don't look the GW Warhammer scale ones so I always have my eyes peeled for Wood Elf proxies.
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Very nice job. Go on !
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Utterly distracted making a ton of dryads for WE army project. Pretty sure these will never cast so they might just be one offs. Painted up I think they'll look the part.
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Neat work!
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Ooooooh yes ! Very nice stuff ! In pack, i'm sure they would look aweseome.
If i can council something, i would say mold them. You may want some extra unit one day, for you or a friend or anywone else, and you won't be able to if you have already painted them.
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I hear you marell but as I'm not set up for metal casting I can't see it happening. Given the attempts in resin haven't gone well I think anything individual figure scale might be out of reach for me at the moment so I'll probably only try casting buildings/scenery items. I've run out of RTV to make the molds at the moment and 1/3 usable molds isn't a great return on investment.
That said if I can find a method of creating metal minis without a spin caster then I could have a go at making a dozen or so dollies with everything finished bar the head/face and fingers. I might take something I've sculpted to Salute this year and see if I can find a quiet moment to have a chat with one of the Magister or Pendraken blokes and see what they think.
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Sent a few photos off to Pendraken and Leon said they're unlikely to have any joy casting them so I'm going to crack on with painting these up for next month's painting competition.
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That's a shame as I would have bought them. I'm going to attempt my own version
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Just a wee update on this as I've now used all of the material I had initially bought.
Form my experience here I've learnt the following:
- I'm not good enough at making molds for figures. They're just too small and tricky to get the resin into. Tried and failed twice. I'll leave this to the experts as I don't want to invest in loads of kit. Don't have space for it.
- The mold for the walls was great - dig them out of the mold when they've just gone white (set) and you can bend them but better to have a form to stick them in or they try to straighten up. On a couple of occasions I got a bit heavy handed with the initial pour, ended up with too much resin, and had to knock up something in a hurry and found out Plasticine works as a mold - I'll provide a couple of examples in photos this weekend. Not the cheapest scatter terrain in the world but will certainly be robust.
- Polycraft silicone and resin used for this was available from MB Fibreglass in UK - I got the casting kit. Easy to use for the purpose I had. I bought through Amazon so this should work for Europe as well. US you have Smooth-on which looks a pretty good product.
- It's infinitely quicker than sculpting everything you need BUT only worthwhile if you need a lot of them as it's an expensive way to make 5 of something.
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Thank s for the feedback, i was following your dryads with interest (i too will go down the same route) after i completed painting my dwarfs. I'm not brave enough to tempt resin casting yet, instead I'm going to experiment with xps buildings . Not sure how it will work at 10mm but I'll give it a go, and start posting up if it works.. interested to see how your stuff came out so please keep posting (with pics)
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Post me a picture of this figure you can’t cast, I’ll see if I can do it. I may be able to cast using your molds even. You don’t need a vacuum, but for little things you do need pressure. I’ve only ever used a pressure pot and have people said my home casts are on par with forgeworld... don’t know if that’s good or not though.