Specialist Arms Forum
Warmaster => Warmaster Revolution => Topic started by: empireaddict on January 28, 2017, 08:46:03 AM
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Suggestion:
Trollslayers should be +1 when fighting Trolls.
Justification:
Er, the clue is in the name.
I recall that, back in the day, this was a recurring irritation for the 'WM elder' known as Ulgityer.
And why can't Trollslayers brigade with other Trollslayers? This wasn't in the original Warmaster book. Is there some sort of WHFB fluff that required it to be added. Or did someone on the playtest team decide that Dwarves were overpowered (?!) and needed to be brought down a peg?
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It became a common tactic to send out the RedHeadBrigade to get itself killed and kills as much opponent as possible. With the restriction to brigade Slayers at least the Dwarf has to make tactical choices to get all his TS committed
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This was always a deep down erk of mine too, I stopped calling them trollslayers and just "slayers". If they get a +1 to trolls then why not ogres? Then it starts to roll so I real it back in by thinking about the rule for the ogres that they need to charge "Men" and so I try to label something and we are back to just "monsters".
Its a good thought and you are not alone :)
maybe we CAN expand the +1 attack roll to include a hatred roll like in WHFB? maybe +1d3 attacks per unit during combat of anything in a certain list per round? Just spit balling and seeing if anything sticks.
I never go with them as it was always too easy to get them to charge into a trap like putting some flyers out in front or something. I actually just played a game where I used trolls to screen them and the trolls really gave them a beating and then finished them up on the next turn. :(
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"It became a common tactic to send out the RedHeadBrigade to get itself killed and kills as much opponent as possible" Isn't that what Trollslayers are supposed to do?
See also Flagellants, Witch Elves, Norse Beserkers, Cathay Dishonoured etc. Why penalise Dwarves only?
And if the Dwarf player sends 4 Trollslayers off to die in that way he pushes himself a 4 towards a normally low break point.
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great idea but shouldn't trolls then become monsters?
extra charge bonus, ability to pursue cav, but no magic items
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right, I don't condone making trolls "monsters" but maybe we can make a specific list of more units and instead of just a plus 1 per stand we can go with the +1d3 per round of combat against that expanded list? If no one else likes it then I wouldn't mind. Then would begin a list :/
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I think this is overcomplicating the ruleset. +1 versus monsters is already a characterful rule that is simple to remember rather than a list of things.
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See also Flagellants, Witch Elves, Norse Beserkers, Cathay Dishonoured etc. Why penalise Dwarves only?
Slayers are still the toughest of them having 4hits, ability to take 2 per 1k points, +1A against monsters. And there is also the rule you must get rid of them if you don't want give your opponent free points. I see why the limitation was made.
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@Aldhick, point taken. But to return to the original proposal, should Trollslayers be +1 against Trolls? (But without upgrading the Trolls themselves to monsters!)
Alternatively, and this might be a much simpler solution, just rename them as Slayers?!
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The issue is not the slayers, it is the trolls.
Make them:
- monsters (+1A when charging and can pursue Cav)
- deduct attacks to A:4
- keep the -1 in command.
This in combo will make them more interesting for both OnG and Chaos.
Have very rarely seen Trolls in any lists of those armies.
And the slayers finally become Trollslayers. 8)
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For OnG's the biggest problem with trolls are the -1 to command. I usually just nope out of it, but with crown of command it's doable.
Although I am tempted by the idea to make trolls monsters I think I like Empireaddicts simple namechange solution the best.
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The issue is not the slayers, it is the trolls.
Make them:
- monsters (+1A when charging and can pursue Cav)
- deduct attacks to A:4
- keep the -1 in command.
This in combo will make them more interesting for both OnG and Chaos.
Have very rarely seen Trolls in any lists of those armies.
And the slayers finally become Trollslayers. 8)
If we reduce the attacks to 4. They will only get 5 attacks during charge. Not during enemy charge and not during advance. If we declare them monsters they can't enter some terrain.
Can't see why this is better?
The only benefit is they can't be defended and can pursue cavalry.
For OnG's the biggest problem with trolls are the -1 to command. I usually just nope out of it, but with crown of command it's doable.
Although I am tempted by the idea to make trolls monsters I think I like Empireaddicts simple namechange solution the best.
Trollslayer are called trollslayer because this was the lowest rank in Old World fluff a slayer would start. And they are not the worst unit in killing trolls. The point of slayers is get them killed I suppose.
And with the half move on failed command they stumble forward one turn after another until they reach initiative.
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Sorry for the "off topic", but...
Don´t forget the positive synergy Trolls as monsters would gain/add to their respective armies.
Well outweighs their new combination of drawbacks.
In my opinion, the BIG "5-cent" here is:
Trolls would 'less rarely' get left behind when composing a new list.
=> more Trolls on the battlefields :D
With 'less rarely' meaning:
Probably mostly because the reasons you point out, less defensive capability means enemy may actually engage them instead of total avoidance.
Thereby, under the course of several games, they will be picked more often when making/moderating a list.
Compare this with todays version, where they only are a command-sink-hole or/and a static flank-wall.
Woods, support, supported: there are several other units in each army for these tasks.
During charge would still be 6 attacks, 4+charge+monster. (compare 5+charge)
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So to fix a problem with the name of a single unit the suggestion is that Trolls become wide based monsters? Seriously, does that honestly seem like the best solution to a niggle over names? I actually quite like the idea of making them monsters but a) I see no justification in dropping their attacks and b) I do worry that they are going to end up easily killed by terrain if this happens without a special rule allowing them to enter difficult terrain as if they were normal infantry (which would then need reflecting in their cost) Overall though it seems to be change for the sake of a name rather than any actual need 😒
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Just trying to help.
By giving an idea to work with.
Honestly, this idea actually solves the topic-issue and some others.
No special rules needed.
So, as an idea, it can´t be that far from the goal.
Back in 2001 when starting off with this wonderful game, my mate played Dwarfs and I played Chaos.
So the issue came up literally in the very first learn-to-play-WM game.
Our conclusion/question back then was "Why aren´t Trolls monsters?" :o
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to add to the problem, way back in 2000, I started off with chaos and soon had a dwarf and chaos army but never went with trolls or slayers but always assumed trolls were monsters because it made sense. Jump ahead 14 years and I finally got into a bender of collecting the whole chaos army list and I actually assumed they were. I was very depressed when I learned they were just infantry :)
I just call them slayers now. :P
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Sorry if that came across as a bit aggressive, it wasn't supposed too :( I do agree that Trolls being monsters does make some sense, I'm just not sure it's really a problem and the idea to change them seems to be motivated by a desire to fix the logical inconsistency of troll slayers name rather than any issue with rules? It just seems a very strange thing to do to fix a tiny problem with flavour!
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can we start a poll?
just change the name to "Dwarf Slayers"?
simply add trolls and/or others to the list for slayers bonus'?
change trolls to monsters while keeping their bases facing (same as harpies)?
radical new changes to slayers with a few added to a new "hatred" list and do the 1D3 bonus per round?
honestmistake, it wasn't aggressive. with your icon "everything is better with tentacles", I can't take anything you say as aggressive :)
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But they aren't slaying Dwarfs are they? Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Maybe playtest a few of the alternatives and see if a change is overall positive for the game?
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But they aren't slaying Dwarfs are they? Sorry, couldn't resist.
The high casualty rate resulting from the way I commanded my Dwarf army means I was the real 'Dwarf Slayer'.
My Hero died in combat so often, I painted his hair and beard the bright Orange of a glory hunting Slayer.
Good times.
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played a couple of games yesterday. Dwarf vs. Chaos 1500 points.
Tested out this possible rule change and the new combat style.
my chaos army had 2 spawns so it really did come about after 2 and a half games.
First, the 1d3 bonus wouldn't work because how do you assign the +3 attacks when only 1 stand is fighting a monster? So I think that is definitely out.
Second, I think changing trolls to monsters is a bit strong and a few others have chimed in on that.
I vote for just changing the name :(
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I think the changes to the support rules means removing the 'infantry' status of Trolls would have a huge effect.
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When it comes to Troll Slayers nomenclature,.... who cares?
If a dwarf player doesn't attack Trolls with his slayers whenever he can.... as far as I'm concerned... he's playing the wrong army. :)
(Like an Orc player who doesn't chuckle when a unit of his goblins is wiped in one turn.....)