Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: Tves on April 21, 2017, 10:54:17 AM
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Now a while back I made a DE fleet from Reaver Jetbikes and Helions. And over the course of a few weeks played 6 games with them using the Battlefleet Gothic Revisded Edition rules.
What I found was that DE are tactically boring. With Mimic Engine + speed I'd get into alpha strike position without the enemy being able to do much about it. Then wiped the target from space and hoped I'd survive what ever came my way. (Enemies were Necron (no mimic engine against them), Imperials and Demiurg/Rogue Traders). There were 4 of us and we each played 2 games against each of the others.
With Slave Taking, alpha strike damage and disengages most of the games were won with a comfortable margin. And at the end of the short campaign I was sick and bored with the DE which I was greatly saddened by since I loved modeling them and loved the models.
So I wonder if perhaps its worth trying to change them a bit, but maintaining the core concepts of the Dark Eldar as a race
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What particularly did you have in mind?
I can agree that the mimic engine rule has always been a little wonky (personally I thought it was simpler as a "Scout Move" in the original Armada rules, but this was changed to be more thematic for BFG:R). I think one of the main issues is how the mimic engines interact with different scenario setups. For some battles, 2 turns of pacifism is fine since hardly anyone is shooting on Turn 1 anyway. For other things though, 2 turns of free safety seems like it might be almost too much.
I'm not sure what else there really is in terms of DE to develop however (besides adding more unique stuff arbitrarily, or reverting things like shadowfields). They were never well fleshed out in the lore in terms of space combat, so it's hard to say off the top of the head what could be added.
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We could work out a fix to minim engines because I feel the same way. The few times I've ran a DE fleet, especially against non Eldar, Nids, or Necrons, the enemy simply can't maneuver fast enough. Crippling enemy cruisers on turn 2 before they even have a chance to do anything about it seems to powerful.
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Thanks for the feedback.
Removing the mimic engine would remove character. Going back to the old rules plainly means spending extra points to get the same effect.
So the solution should/could be to change how Mimic Engines work and what they do in the game.
What springs to mind : mimic = copy enemy ship. What if mimic engines emit signature that DE appear as friendly vessels. One may not shoot at friendly vessels.
When active Dark Eldar ship may not attack. Enemy may try to attack Dark Eldar ship with Mimic Engines active on a leadership test with four...three... (?) dice.
Other ideas are welcome.
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Now I know what comes after this could be considered heresy and would require at least copious amounts of playtesting to get right. Its a two step sollution that came to mind around the same time as I posted the thread, but since then has been fleshed out a bit.
Step 1: Change mimic engine to give a "scout move" that is a full movement phase before the begining of the game. Still debating with myself if it should be with or without special order options. - The reason for this is of course the rather muddled spirit of the original rule. Opposing players attempt to circumnavigate the ruling by flying attack craft in the way of the ships, some even tried recon by nova cannon since its not "shooting". This leads to debates/arguments and then resentment. Its also boring for the non DE player not being able to do a dammed thing for the first two turn except be a lamb on the way to the slaughter
Step 2: Power from Pain
When performing a Hit and run attack, or Impailer module hit and run attack, the Dark Eldar player can capture slaves instead of causing critical hits. This must be announched before the dice are rolled. These capture missions work identically to hit and run attacks. Except if they succeed the Dark Eldar fleet gains a Slave Token. An successful impailer module attack gathers d6 slave tokens for the fleet.
At the begining of his turn the Dark Eldar player may cull one or more of his tokens in ritual slaughter for certain benefits for his ships. The benefits gained from the tokens vary between the various cabals, some persist the entire game, others only offer a short bonus.
The Number before the bonus is the number of Tokens the bonus costs per ship.
Wych Cults
3 - Gleeful abandon - For one Turn the ship can make 1 hit and run attack against every enemy ship it moves into b2b contact with during the movement phase. But it may not take boarding actions in the same turn that it uses this benefit.
2 - Ferocious attacks - +1 bonus to boarding as well as hit and run attacks (total +2) for a single turn
2 - Slaughter drunk - The ship doubles its hits when determining boarding value for a single boarding action.
1- Frenzied killing - The Wych cult can reroll their dice once for boarding attacks. Lasts until used.
1 - Speed Demons - Attack craft gain +5cm speed. Lasts for the remainder of the game, for this ship only.
1 - Death Craze - The ship does not need to check leadership to ram enemy vessels or when going on all full ahead special orders, this bonus is only active for the turn it is selected on.
Homonculai Coven
3 - Welcome the Pain - The ship can always save against damage as if they were braced, This effect lasts from the turn it is purchased on and until the start of the Dark Eldars next turn. (possible to save vs damage suffered during own turn as well as enemy).
2 - Release the Grotesques - The ships boarding parties are made up of horrid grotesques. Any successful hit and run attack demoralises the target causing a -1 leadership “critical” that can be repaired as normal.
2 - Slaughter drunk - The ship doubles its hits when determining boarding value for a single boarding action.
1 - Death Craze - The ship does not need to check leadership to ram enemy vessels or when going on all full ahead special orders, this bonus is only active for the turn it is selected on.
1 - Choir of Ecstacy - For one turn the ship causes enemy vessels within 15cm to suffer -1 Leadership.
1 - Killer Load - The ships attack craft are loaded with virulent gases and poisons. They may re-roll any dice to determine how many hits their bombers cause on attack runs.
Warrior Cabal
3 - Devious killers - The ship may at any point of the turn change its special order die from one result to another without making a leadership check.
2 - Red Craze - The ship needs to move 5cm less before turning. This bonus lasts for the remainder of the game.
2 - Slaughter drunk - The ship doubles its hits when determining boarding value for a single boarding action.
1 - Death Craze - The ship does not need to check leadership to ram enemy vessels or when going on all full ahead special orders, this bonus is only active for the turn it is selected on.
1 - Thrill of the Hunt - The ship gains a re-roll that only it can use.
1 - Swift Death - The ship may either automatically succeed the check to go on all full ahead or gain 2d6 extra speed from the roll. Can only be used once.
We determined the tediousness stemmed from the fact that Dark Eldar pretty much had a single play, move in alphastrike something, generate as much VP via impailers/hit and run before disengaging in turn 2-3. So I wanted to give them some flexibility without starting to meddle with their ship designs or creating new ships. This was the most Dark Eldar-esque thing I could think off. Slave taking felt a bit flat in the original rules. Sure made sense but felt like a good idea falling flat.
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I like this idea but I can see it leading to lots of bookkeeping. Which ship has how many tokens and which buffs. The slave taking rule I think is there as an added benefit. You might be able to improve upon it by making it more of an incentive other than 10 victory points per slave. I suggest some kind of generic ability where the number of slaves you have taken give your ship a permanent bonus. That way you are incentivized to take slaves but there wont be as much bookkeeping to worry about.
I feel the big issue is mimic engines, they should maybe be a save of some kind and last until the ship is crippled of maybe a critical effect can turn them off.
Might be able to take the shadowfield back to its old save and let the DE have their pre-game move. Or maybe even make it so you can't target them if they are more than 45cm away.
Making the shadowfield better than the Eldar version seems thematic to me. In 40k, the shadowfield gives you a 2+ invulnerable save until you fail it. Eldar have nothing that comes even close to a save that good.
I want to try and test the old rules again and see how they compare to now. Maybe even giving all DE ships a 3+ save vs all and then taking away their shields.
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I think mimic engines should be simple and fluffy, and not completely cock-blocking to the opponent as it is now.
What about:
- If an enemy ship wants to shoot at a Dark Eldar ship equipped with a Mimic Engine, they must take a Leadership Test with a -4 modifier. If they pass, they have seen through the ruse and may fire as normal. If they fail, they are still unsure who the ship is and cannot shoot any weapons at all at any target, though they may still launch attack craft to 'investigate'. The mimic engine effect is lost if the Dark Eldar ship shoots, launches ordnance, or comes within 30cm of an enemy ship. The effect is also lost if a ship passes its test to see through the ruse, as the information gets transmitted to the rest of the fleet.
I decided on a -4 modifier because it represents the effect well. Experienced shipmasters (aka Ld 10, aka Eldar and SM) will more often see through the effect, having come across it before. Lesser captains will have a hard time with it, as it should be, while not being a completely boring blocker.
This also keeps the effect going throughout the entire game, should you want to have a sneaky flanker skirting the enemy effectively, as I feel DE should be able to do.
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It seems like everyone is in agreement about mimic engines being a problem, the core issue of which is the way they offer almost zero interactivity from the other player (i.e. "you just sit there and do nothing until I alpha strike you").
I like the ideas going around of just making it a Ld test with a penalty (either take the test on 3D6 like horizon suggested, or with reduced Ld like Seahawk suggested). My thought was something along these lines:
When a Dark Eldar vessel is deployed or moves onto the table, mark it as mimicking (using a token or other note). Whenever an enemy vessel wishes to fire at a mimicking ship (including torpedoes and nova cannon, if the initial path/placement of the attack will not overlap a revealed target), it must first take a leadership test [with a penalty TBD]. If the test is passed, the attack is resolved normally. Otherwise, the enemy vessel may not fire its weapons or launch any ordnance except attack craft.
Mimicking vessels are treated as friendly vessels by any ordnance with automatic targeting (such as mines, minefields, seeking torpedoes, etc.).
A Dark Eldar vessel is revealed immediately after it shoots, launches ordnance, moves within 30cm of an enemy ship (at any point during either player's turn), or defends against enemy attack craft or boarding torpedoes.
A Dark Eldar vessel may re-establish its mimicking state by feinting. To do this, the vessel must end its move more than 30cm from any enemy ship and attempt to disengage. If the leadership test is passed on a score of X or less [TBD], you may mark the vessel as mimicking once again, instead of removing it from the board.
Lastly, the rules for mimic engines replace the normal rules for target priority when firing at Dark Eldar ships. Note that this means an enemy may always choose to shoot at any revealed Dark Eldar vessel without restriction, regardless of whether or not it is the closest target.
Necrons & Tyranids still ignore the rules for mimic engines, and will use the normal rules for target priority.
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Not sure how I feel about remimimimimicccing. Once the jig is up, the captains will know it's an enemy, no matter what. It's not like Star Trek cloaking, after all.
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Not sure how I feel about remimimimimicccing. Once the jig is up, the captains will know it's an enemy, no matter what. It's not like Star Trek cloaking, after all.
Fluff-wise I was thinking more that the ship sorta leaves then comes back, having "cycled" its mimic profile so that even though the enemy can suspect it's an enemy, they might not know for certain. Mechanically I was just thinking of it as a way to keep the rule relevant through the game. Either way it's not crucial that it's in there. Makes it simpler without it in any case.
This brings us to the issue though of how the Dark Eldar should play after the mimic engines are gone. At the moment, they're basically just big escorts with the slave-taking ability (which seems like it's also not very fun, maybe?), so do we want them to having something else beyond that?
While the whole concept of "fly-in unopposed, alpha strike, board/use impalers, then disengage" is a very Dark Eldar theme, it seems like that's not very enjoyable for the opponent, and ends up being a sort-of binary succeed-or-fail type of game. Fixing mimic engines to effectively last longer but with the possibility of being defeated only deals with the first couple of steps in the above strategy.
So I'm thinking that there needs to be something else (like people have stated, maybe something with Slave Taking) to give both players more engagement in the game, without totally removing the "hit & run raiders" feeling from the Dark Eldar playstyle.
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Maybe Dark Eldar gain more points for hulks than other races?
This would represent them taking their time enjoying the spoils, picking over the best slaves and whatnot, so to that end they gain 2x or 3x as many victory points for hulks.
To do this, they'd have to stay in the game, making it more, y'know, a game. They have reason to stay (gambling for more points, very DE!).
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Maybe Dark Eldar gain more points for hulks than other races?
This would represent them taking their time enjoying the spoils, picking over the best slaves and whatnot, so to that end they gain 2x or 3x as many victory points for hulks.
To do this, they'd have to stay in the game, making it more, y'know, a game. They have reason to stay (gambling for more points, very DE!).
I like this suggestion a lot. I'm thinking that along with this the Slave-Taking rules could be updated similar to Tves' suggestion (though pared down somewhat, for less book-keeping). Perhaps something that provides only a small generic bonus (along the lines of the VP bonus for Bridge Smashed), with the major effect being to incrementally debuff the target's boarding defense. That would tie in with the incentive to board (since that's the most consistent way to ensure drifting hulks). In a sense, DE would be a "boarding race" but without the native bonuses to boarding that other races have, so they'd need to do hit-&-runs to whittle down a target's resistance before scoring the kill and leaving it as a hulk.
So with this we'd have:
Mimic Engines as a strong defense (but not a complete block on the opponent)
Slave-Taking as a way to nullify boarding defenses (and other minor VP bonuses)
"Spoils of War" (i.e. double or triple hulk points) as a DE endgame goal to keep them engaged in the battle.
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Eh, not to many new things at once.
Changing the mimic engine plus hulk idea will be good enough.
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Eh, not to many new things at once.
Changing the mimic engine plus hulk idea will be good enough.
Hmm, but even if Slavetaking isn't functionally changed, something needs to be done about the VP earnings or there still won't be any incentive to make use of the hulk idea. Perhaps having only work once per enemy ship? (i.e. all the obvious spoils are taken in the first hit&run, so if you want more you'll need to hulk the ship and take the time to pick over the remains).
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Well the Upgraded slave taking stuff I mentioned has hardly more book keeping than the fleet does already. Tokens Generated are fleetwide, so no need to track which ship has what as some interpreted it earlier. (This is identical to the book keeping for the VP generated by Slave taking currently). All but 3 of the buffs last for single turn, that is you purchase them before starting special orders (first thing in a turn), and they last until you finish. The ones that last longer are the Psudo brace (lasts enemy turn as well), the ship specific reroll the warriors can buy, and the +5cm speed on attack craft.
The point of this exercise was to give the Dark Eldar some tactical flexibility without shattering their flavor. For they are frankly a one trick pony. The bonus can be quite good, but I had thought this to replace VP generation and the rebalance of the Mimic engine to a "scout move" post deployment/pre first turn.
I plan on playtesting this within the local group to see how things turn out. Might do other stuff as well as lifting the 3 escort minimum per capital ship (If people want more variety in their fleets, the escorts are far more dangerous anyway).
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Eh, not to many new things at once.
Changing the mimic engine plus hulk idea will be good enough.
Hmm, but even if Slavetaking isn't functionally changed, something needs to be done about the VP earnings or there still won't be any incentive to make use of the hulk idea. Perhaps having only work once per enemy ship? (i.e. all the obvious spoils are taken in the first hit&run, so if you want more you'll need to hulk the ship and take the time to pick over the remains).
If the (dull) Alpha Strike Mode is denied then the Dark Eldar will need to play more like a regular Eldar player.
The leadership modifier for shooting is a real good one. So Seahawk's idea regarding the modifier is fine with me (less random then 3d6). Some playtesting needed for the exact value. Difficult to pinpoint something like this out of the blue.
Eg, Slavetaking: may be used on hulks for double victory points. This added will be suficient, right?
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Eg, Slavetaking: may be used on hulks for double victory points. This added will be suficient, right?
This seems like a good starting place. I'm thinking something along the lines of:
> Normal value for slave-taking is +5VPs per hit & run / per boarding difference.
> If the target is at least crippled, the value is 2x = 10VPs per hit & run / per boarding difference.
> If the target is a drifting or blazing hulk, the value is 2x again = 20VPs per hit & run / per boarding difference.
EDIT: Alternatively, for simplicity it could just be 5, 10, or 15 VPs for normal, crippled, destroyed targets.
Also, Impalers would remain the same as D6x the corresponding slave-taking value.
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Slave taking on a hulk with boarding will break the game. Hulks have 0 hits and thus the boarder will always be attacking at the maximum bonus for boarding Value. A boarding action at +5 to the dice (+4 boarding value difference and +1 racial) will generate on average 100vp a turn (since the hulk does not explode but remains a hulk so they can repeat again next turn). A DE player could win the game simply by repeatedly boarding the same hulk a few turns with a single ship.
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So now that you mention it, I'm pretty sure that's already possible (just at a lesser value). Maybe horizon is right and we're making this too complicated.
Perhaps just start with:
Mimic Engines:
> Ld test w/ -4 penalty or can't attack (as described on the previous page)
Slave-Taking:
> Hit & Run may forego rolling in exchange for +5VP (+bonus 5VP if target is crippled).
> Impaler is D6x the appropriate H&R value.
> Boarding earns +10VP per hit, +100 for bridge smashed.
> Slave-Taking can't be used on hulks (by any means).
Salvaging Hulks:
> DE earn extra VPs equal to 50% of the total points value of each enemy hulk on the table (but not friendly hulks), regardless of whether they hold the field or not. This is in addition to the normal VPs awarded for salvage captured (if any).
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Mimic Engines:
> Ld test w/ -4 penalty or can't attack (as described on the previous page)
LD at -4... this means the average chaos/imperial ship has a 16,65% chance of passing. Orks have about 8% and Eldar/Marines around 28%. Would mean multiple rolls slowing stuff down even more. Effect to the Dark Eldar play style would be near to none. (especially since you sorta just made the alpha ding dong ditch method better in later changes). Why not a scout move? A single movement phase between deployment and game start.
Slave-Taking:
> Hit & Run may forego rolling in exchange for +5VP (+bonus 5VP if target is crippled).
> Impaler is D6x the appropriate H&R value.
> Boarding earns +10VP per hit, +100 for bridge smashed.
> Slave-Taking can't be used on hulks (by any means).
Unchanged except 50% reduction in VP generated on non crippled ships. Except now they don't even need to roll... Sure its a nerf but does not add any thing or change their playstyle.
Salvaging Hulks:
> DE earn extra VPs equal to 50% of the total points value of each enemy hulk on the table (but not friendly hulks), regardless of whether they hold the field or not. This is in addition to the normal VPs awarded for salvage captured (if any).
So effectively you've decided to give Dark Eldar nearly 150% VP per capital ship cost. The Ding dong Ditch method is now king. Alpha strike a single cruiser or a pair with your fleet and disengage. VP victory guarenteed (a destroyed lunar is worth 270 if hulked for them).
This proposed fixes do nothing to change the fact that the Dark Eldar fleet has about a single tactical option. Mimic engine in, setup for a overwhelming alpha strike and then without much fear of reprisal blow a giant hole in the enemies fleet. I really can't see any of these actually changing anything, except perhaps add confusion and book keeping (atleast in the original you could count the number of slave takes on a die, now you need twice as many since they come in an instance of 5 iso 10).
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Mimic Engines:
> Ld test w/ -4 penalty or can't attack (as described on the previous page)
LD at -4... this means the average chaos/imperial ship has a 16,65% chance of passing. Orks have about 8% and Eldar/Marines around 28%. Would mean multiple rolls slowing stuff down even more. Effect to the Dark Eldar play style would be near to none. (especially since you sorta just made the alpha ding dong ditch method better in later changes). Why not a scout move? A single movement phase between deployment and game start.
The penalty amount doesn't have to be -4, if that seems too high. And remember that this would bring back the 30cm "revealed zone" around enemy ships. The idea here was to have mimic engines potentially in-play for a longer period of time, depending on how the DE player wants to move/deploy their forces.
Going back to the classic Armada DE mimic engines is still possible, of course.
Slave-Taking:
> Hit & Run may forego rolling in exchange for +5VP (+bonus 5VP if target is crippled).
> Impaler is D6x the appropriate H&R value.
> Boarding earns +10VP per hit, +100 for bridge smashed.
> Slave-Taking can't be used on hulks (by any means).
Unchanged except 50% reduction in VP generated on non crippled ships. Except now they don't even need to roll... Sure its a nerf but does not add any thing or change their playstyle.
They didn't need to roll in the current BFG:R rules...
As far as why people seem resistant to the large "PfP" tables you suggested, the book-keeping issue isn't as much about how you have to remember stuff (compared to tallying VPs, anyway). It's more an issue of having to look up your options every turn, as players may not feel like memorizing all 18 potential bonuses, or (more likely) will simply want to check every option to see if it's the most advantageous in that moment. If you cut it to 6 options or less (with all the same effect duration), it would probably work a lot better. Alternatively, simply a single bonus with a scaling effect based on the number of "points" spent.
Salvaging Hulks:
> DE earn extra VPs equal to 50% of the total points value of each enemy hulk on the table (but not friendly hulks), regardless of whether they hold the field or not. This is in addition to the normal VPs awarded for salvage captured (if any).
So effectively you've decided to give Dark Eldar nearly 150% VP per capital ship cost. The Ding dong Ditch method is now king. Alpha strike a single cruiser or a pair with your fleet and disengage. VP victory guarenteed (a destroyed lunar is worth 270 if hulked for them).
This proposed fixes do nothing to change the fact that the Dark Eldar fleet has about a single tactical option. Mimic engine in, setup for a overwhelming alpha strike and then without much fear of reprisal blow a giant hole in the enemies fleet. I really can't see any of these actually changing anything, except perhaps add confusion and book keeping (atleast in the original you could count the number of slave takes on a die, now you need twice as many since they come in an instance of 5 iso 10).
Fair enough. Perhaps the extra VPs is too much. In that case, it seems like we still need something thematic to give the DE player an actual incentive to stay on the board. Even if we assume mimic engines revert to their classic state, and the slave-taking provides some kind of bonus rather than VPs, there isn't much to differentiate the DE from regular Eldar, but without the weird movement options.
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Yea, that got needlessly complicated.
Slave taking doesn't have to change at all. Frankly I already think it's ridiculous and over the top that DE already get soooo many free VP's so easily compared to all other fleets. I'm not sure how to change it, other than maybe restrict the module to just capital ships, since escorts are lightning fast and agile, and having that many dudes crammed into it can't be good for a ship's crew complement.
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So I've been thinking about Tves' suggestion regarding 40k's "Power From Pain" rules as a starting point for further developing DE in BFG (a reasonable place, considering DE barely existed when BFG was first brought about).
Of course, if a whole new block of rules gets added to the DE book, some things will probably need to be dialed back, such as mimic engines and slave-taking (which seemed to be the main points of contention in this thread). So that led me to this next iteration:
Mimic Engines:
Until a DE ship attacks (incl. boarding, teleport H&Rs, etc.), launches ordnance, moves within 30cm of an enemy ship, or defends against enemy ordnance, any opposing ship attempting to attack it must pass a Ld test with a -2 penalty. If it fails, it must attack a non-mimicking target or not at all. Effect automatically goes away at the end of the 2nd game turn.
(There will also be some conditions to prevent using friendly-fire or indirect weapons to bypass the rule, and still no effect vs Tyranids or Necrons).
Slave-Taking:
Score +10VPs per hit inflicted during a boarding action, and +100VPs if the Bridge Smashed critical is inflicted. (No effect for H&R or Impaler attacks).
Power from Pain (taking a cue from 40k 7E Dark Eldar):
At the start of the DE player's turn, their capital ships gain the bonus below corresponding to the current turn number. This lasts for the rest of the game:
- None
- Re-roll attempts to repair critical damage.
- Repair critical damage on a roll of 5+ instead of 6.
- Immune to negative leadership penalties.
- In a boarding action, use the ship's starting hits to determine its boarding value.
- In a boarding action, the ship does not award a bonus to the attacker for being in contact with blast markers,
being on special orders, or being crippled.
+++++++++
The idea here is to work towards removing some of the DE's alpha strike potential without killing the strategy outright. In theory, with mimic engines offering much less protection, and no way to generate VPs with H&Rs, the DE player may benefit from alpha-striking, but should not be consistently able to disengage before turn 3. To keep them in the game afterwards, their ships become harder to disable and stronger at boarding the longer the game goes on.
So how does this look? Too much? Too little? Just right?
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I'm a better fan of -3, and keep it all game until lost. -2 feels like most captains could see through it without too much issue. I realize that's what you were aiming for, but there's no need to go overboard on the other stuff at expense of fluffy rules.
Instead of power from pain, how about a flat bonus per turn for certain actions?
Example:
Turn 1: +0VP per winning boarding action, +0 per H&R
Turn 2: +10VP per winning boarding action, +5 per H&R
Turn 3: +20VP per winning boarding action, +5 per H&R
Turn 4: +30VP per winning boarding action, +10 per H&R
Turn 5: +40VP per winning boarding action, +10 per H&R
Turn 6: +50VP per winning boarding action, +10 per H&R
Personally, any chance for free VP is already OP when some fleets struggle to generate any, so this is still an enormous boon. Players are very encouraged to stay in the game, because while they get some early on, the big bucks are late game. It also encourages use of capital ships over pure escort fleets. It meshes very well with my first iteration of mimic engines, since you'll be able to keep ships ghosting around the edges until the moment to strike is right, resulting in the enemy fleet trying to chase them down to discover their identity.
Finally, with the bonus for capturing hulks, there is a lot of opportunity for DE to gain their thrice-damned free VP that makes sense (slaves!) and gives lots of reason to stay in the game.
To me, that sounds like a really story-driven game that delivers in the rules, as all games should be.
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I'm a better fan of -3, and keep it all game until lost. -2 feels like most captains could see through it without too much issue. I realize that's what you were aiming for, but there's no need to go overboard on the other stuff at expense of fluffy rules.
Instead of power from pain, how about a flat bonus per turn for certain actions?
Example:
Turn 1: +0VP per winning boarding action, +0 per H&R
Turn 2: +10VP per winning boarding action, +5 per H&R
Turn 3: +20VP per winning boarding action, +5 per H&R
Turn 4: +30VP per winning boarding action, +10 per H&R
Turn 5: +40VP per winning boarding action, +10 per H&R
Turn 6: +50VP per winning boarding action, +10 per H&R
Personally, any chance for free VP is already OP when some fleets struggle to generate any, so this is still an enormous boon. Players are very encouraged to stay in the game, because while they get some early on, the big bucks are late game. It also encourages use of capital ships over pure escort fleets. It meshes very well with my first iteration of mimic engines, since you'll be able to keep ships ghosting around the edges until the moment to strike is right, resulting in the enemy fleet trying to chase them down to discover their identity.
Finally, with the bonus for capturing hulks, there is a lot of opportunity for DE to gain their thrice-damned free VP that makes sense (slaves!) and gives lots of reason to stay in the game.
To me, that sounds like a really story-driven game that delivers in the rules, as all games should be.
My concern here, which is what I was trying to get away from with my previous suggestion (after Tves' comments), is that free VPs may not be the best core mechanic for DE. The issue is really what you brought up in your post - other fleets may struggle to generate VPs, especially in the early game. This is central to the problem Tves brings up in the OP; namely that the VPs from an alpha strike, plus a bit from slave-taking, is usually enough to allow a victory through disengagement, because the opponent can't generate enough VPs in one turn to counter it.
In short, if the opponent hasn't scored on their own, the DE player only needs to score enough to cover 10% of their fleet's cost (due to disengaging), plus a small buffer. For a 1500pt fleet, this is actually quite easy to do with a single LC kill and a few slave-taking runs. If the alpha-strike output is better than that, the effect is even harder to mitigate.
So under your system, the change may not be as large as you might think (and now that I mention it, this is probably true for most of my suggestions as well). While the early-game VP's have been reduced, the late-game VPs aren't much of an incentive due to the risk of giving up VPs to the opponent by that point. Thus the ideal play would still be to kite on T1, then alpha on T2 or 3, and disengage the next turn before the opponent has scored any VPs for himself.
The more I consider it, the more it seems to me that (as you said) free VPs can be pretty OP under certain conditions (or against certain fleets), and that perhaps we should move away from that as a core mechanic for the Dark Eldar. Similarly, I'm not totally convinced that "complete attack negation" is an ideal function for mimic engines. After reading your comment: "...keep ships ghosting around the edges until the moment to strike... resulting in the enemy fleet trying to chase them down..." I realized that doesn't actually sound very fun for the opponent, in my opinion. To be clear, while extensively kiting is a valid DE tactic, I'm not sure (for the fun-factor) that it's the first thing we want DE players doing every game.
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So, my 2 cents for what has been discussed so far.
Changing the slave taking VP could be a neat way for DE to have an incentive to board and HnR, but I felt the way it is currently done is a simple enough solution. Regarding the slave taking during a HnR, you are only getting VPs and not hurting the enemy vessel so its a choice of damage or points. And for boarding, there is a chance you lose the fight and therefore don't get any points.
The mimic engine is clearly a problem, as the "you have to wait until I attack you" is not a good way to go about it. I like the -4ld check to see them, but my issue with that is, if a ship gets discovered turn one, it can get blasted apart by the enemy before it gets to do anything other than Brace. I like the idea of DE having to pounce, do damage, and then leave quickly before a counterattack. That's how they play in 40k and they should reflect that in BFG.
Also, being able to re-mimic should not be a thing.
What if the mimic engine was a bonus to shadowfield, but you could always shoot at DE. They could get a bonus to the shadowfield save based on range, and if an enemy ship passes a -4 or more ld check, that ship loses the mimic engine bonus. This way there can still be alpha strikes, as the DE could choose to not Brace and be locked on or ready to fire ordnance when they get in close.
Also, while the idea of a power from pain ability is cool, it leads to rules bloat. Look at the Nid and Ork fleets, they are on the verge of having too many abilities/rules, I'd rather not add DE to that list.
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This reads as if it is a discussion about a non-official ruleset/houserules. Maybe the thread name should be changed to avoid confusion.
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This reads as if it is a discussion about a non-official ruleset/houserules. Maybe the thread name should be changed to avoid confusion.
The question started from the original rules FAQ/Compendium 2010.
BFG:R crew started adressing them into those rules.
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What if the mimic engines only worked until the end of turn 2. That way, it could give the DE player the ability to alpha strike, but they would have to be quick about it. And their opponent could attempt to deploy or move in such a way as to mitigate their effectiveness.
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What if the mimic engines only worked until the end of turn 2. That way, it could give the DE player the ability to alpha strike, but they would have to be quick about it. And their opponent could attempt to deploy or move in such a way as to mitigate their effectiveness.
It already functions this way in the BFG:R rules.
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Ah yes, didn't realize they stopped after turn 2. So Really I don't have much of an issue with them. I suppose if they really need a big fix, perhaps until the end of turn 2, on a successful Ld check, a ship can fire at a Mimic ship but with a further right shift on the gunnery table, in addition to the one already given by shadowfields. After turn 2 they cease to function as normal. Maybe even give them a Ld penalty if they are a certain distance away. If they fail they can't fire at that target, and may choose another target as normal.
Also another question I had regarding Shadowfields (and Holofields). Do you get the right shift for gunnery while within 15. It says it offers no protection of any kind, but it is stated after the rules for the save you get. Just something my group was wondering.
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Ah yes, didn't realize they stopped after turn 2. So Really I don't have much of an issue with them. I suppose if they really need a big fix, perhaps until the end of turn 2, on a successful Ld check, a ship can fire at a Mimic ship but with a further right shift on the gunnery table, in addition to the one already given by shadowfields. After turn 2 they cease to function as normal. Maybe even give them a Ld penalty if they are a certain distance away. If they fail they can't fire at that target, and may choose another target as normal.
The issues that Tves and others brought up was firstly that nullifying all attacks can be a hard turn-off for many opponents (since they can't really do anything other than maybe launch ordnance or try to skirt around the spirit of the rule). Beyond that, alpha strike (using Slave-Taking and the maneuverability of the DE ships) followed by immediate disengage often scored enough VPs to win the game without the opponent doing hardly anything.
It's a tricky problem, since the tactic should really be valid for DE, it just needs to be harder to pull off or have a tighter margin of error.
Also another question I had regarding Shadowfields (and Holofields). Do you get the right shift for gunnery while within 15. It says it offers no protection of any kind, but it is stated after the rules for the save you get. Just something my group was wondering.
No column shift if the attack is coming from within 15cm. The only things shadow/holofields are supposed to do are:
> Possible save vs lances (or similar) from more than 15cm away.
> Right shift vs gunnery from more than 15cm away.
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So here's an idea I had.
-Mimic Engine works until end of turn 2 (same as normal)
-Any ship may attempt to discover a Mimicked ship with a leadership roll (not a command roll, so will not benefit from/be penalized for bonuses/penalties to command rolls) during the shooting phase. An attacking ship may target an enemy ship to attempt to discover them even though you are not allowed to target them as long as the Mimic Engine is active.
-Depending on how far the Mimicked ship is away from the attacking vessel, a Ld penalty is applied to the Command roll.
-up to 15cm - 2Ld
-15cm to 30cm -4Ld
-30cm to 60cm -6Ld
-Over 60cm, The enemy ship is simply too far away to be accurately identified.
Any ship that is discovered may be fired upon as normal by the remaining enemy vessels s the attacking ship sends data to the rest of the fleet.
If the command roll is failed, the attacking ship may not attempt to discover a different ship.
This is so any Dark Eldar ship that wishes to get close enough to board or hit with close range guns will risk being discovered and fired upon by a large portion of the enemy fleet. And with low enough rolls with high leadership, you can identify ships that are farther away.
Let me know what you guys think.