Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: Thinking Stone on June 11, 2020, 11:56:59 AM
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Segmentum Obscurus Bastion Reserve fleets and Rogue Trader fleets both make use of older Imperial Navy vessels, but the way these vessels are selected is pretty ad hoc. Since mothball fleets are mentioned fairly often, I thought it'd be an interesting idea to collect the ships that are pretty common in mothball ships into a proper list to both streamline the process of choosing mothball reserves and so that an enterprising player might be inspried to try playing a fleet entirely made up of mothball ships.
So, firstly a quick discussion of my ideas for the different size types and what ships one would be likely to find, followed by my proposal for such a list.
Battleships
Battleships are a bit of a tricky proposition: they're described as being generally old and venerable, but also as being costly, valuable assets that are unlikely to make their way into anything less than legitimate Imperial Navy fleets. On the other hand, the durability of battleships means their hulks pop up in all sorts interesting places, from Space Hulks to Reserve mothballs, and even at the sites of ancient battles that have been forgotten because nobody was around to record the losses. Taking a look at the XR list of battleships (based on R and FAQ2010 and so a fair spread of battleships from official-ish sources):
- Emperor: Divine Right described as being a hulk.
- Apocalypse: Old as well, but not described as mothball or hulked. But perhaps a version limited to 30 cm lances might be found as examples not in 'battleworthy condition'.
- Retribution: The Cardinal Boras (in the first BFG battle report, no less!) 'is known to have led the ill-starred exploration fleet of rogue trader Ventunius'.
- Oberon: Very old, but no mention of hulks etc.. Very rare, but not favoured either.
- Victory: New, top secret. Not likely to be mothball or hulked.
- Vanquisher: Excellent example of a mothball battleship.
- Chaos battleships: From Chaos, we know that even battleship captains can go rogue and chuff off with ships, but perhaps this is quite unlikely for tried-and-tested Imperial designs proven to not have Chaos-enhancing flaws. The Desolator Torment is described as having been captured by renegade pirates, too.
So, overall it looks like there are tenuous links to hulks, but also a definite Retribution link to Rogue Traders through the Cardinal Boras (I suspect this might best be explained as an IN squadron accompanying a Rogue Trader expedition rather than a personal ship of the RT—perhaps best represented as a special RT option rather than a mothball ship). The Vanquisher, however, is definitely described as being a mothball ship, and that suggests there might be other troubled battleships in mothball fleets, too.
Grand Cruisers
After battleships, grand cruisers are bit easier because the Armada Bastion Reserve list specifies which ones you can take. There are Imperial ones
and Chaos ones (as reserves)
- Repulsive (Chaos ordnance but no shield or dorsal lance upgrade)
- Executor (interestingly)
Cruisers and Heavy Cruisers
This is a bit trickier because although the Chaos cruisers
are obviously the reserve ones, there's nothing really to suggest which Imperial cruisers would be found in reserves. It is also curious that no Chaos carriers are listed. I would suggest no Imperial battlecruisers are in mothballs (these modern warships are presumably in too great demand to be mothballed).
- Lunar: It's the most common, and there are presumably many laid up awaiting repairs or recrewing.
- Tyrant: This is tricky, because the BBB says Tyrants are new (and popular to build in M39)—but generic weapons battery gunships are the ideal thematic choice for mothballs. And Rogue Traders have them in their current XR list. Maybe they're ships that've had gun decks partially converted from Chaos-pattern decks?
- Gothic: These are common, so presumably here in similar quantities to Lunars?
- Dictator: As well as being the a potential cruiser carrier for the list, they're refitted Lunars. I could see them being pushed out in Reserve situations.
So there isn't really a strong motivation for any of the IN cruisers except the Lunar and Tyrant inclusion in the BFG:R/XR list. Other Chaos cruisers in the BBB have stronger motivations:
- Styx: Precursor to Mars-pattern battlecruisers, known throughout Obscurus and Ultima.
- Devestation: Unforgivable turned traitor in M37, so was fairly recently an active part of an Imperial fleet.
Light Cruisers
The Siluria is an obvious choice here. I presume Dauntlesses are too important to be mothballed or held up in drydock too long. Maybe the Voss ships or the old Enforcer are potential choices, but an argument for the Voss ships at least is that they're sent to reinforce depleted battlegroups pretty quickly.
Escorts
These are a little tricky too, because the Bastion fleet list doesn't mention them (since escorts come from the standard Bastion list). Swords and Cobras are so ubiquitous that I can imagine them being sent to escort mothball fleets even if they're not mothballs themselves; Falchions are probably similarly common, and are pretty similar to the 'recomissioned escorts' of the XR Rogue Trader list, so I think they could have a place for similar reasons. Firestorms seem too new and valuable to not be in frontline fleets.
- Swords and Cobras: So ubiquitous that I can imagine them being sent to escort mothball fleets even if they're not mothballs themselves.
- Falchions: Probably similarly common, and are pretty similar to the 'recomissioned escorts' of the XR Rogue Trader list, so I think they could have a place for similar reasons.
- Firestorms: Seem too new and valuable to not be in frontline fleets.
- Havocs: These are ideal mothball escorts, for similar reasons to Siluria light cruisers. And they're a bit like a precursor to Firestorms, in a way.
- Chaos escorts: Idolators and Infidels are ruled out, and I imagine Imperial fleets have plenty enough escorts to not need the piratical Iconoclasts.
So, that's a lot of blurb, and it seems like there are a few directions that mothball fleets could go.
List 1: Utilitarian Compatability!
The idea would be that Mothball fleets are just a pragmatic collection of vessels to stick in other fleets—the most restricted option to suit Bastion Reserves and Rogue Traders the best.
- Battleships: none.
- Grand cruisers: Vengeance, Avenger, Repulsive, Executor.
- Heavy cruisers: Hades.
- Cruisers: Carnage, Murder, Lunar, Tyrant.
- Light cruisers: Siluria. Dauntlesses and Endeavours are in XR's RTs, despite me thinking they'd not likely be in mothballs/reserves.
- Escorts: Swords, Havocs, Falchions (replacing Recommissioned Escorts).
List 2: A More Characterful Fleet
The barebones compatability option lacks carriers and doesn't include some of the known mothball ships. This is probably my favoured option for matching background and existing conventions.
- Battleships: Vanquisher.
- Grand cruisers: Vengeance, Avenger, Exorcist Repulsive, Executor.
- Heavy cruisers: Hades, Styx.
- Cruisers: Carnage, Murder, Lunar, Tyrant, Devestation. (Maybe Dictator).
- Light cruisers: Siluria. Dauntlesses and Endeavours with the caveats as before.
- Escorts: Swords, Havocs, Falchions (replacing Recommissioned Escorts). (Maybe Cobras).
Special Rules
I already want to revamp the Reserves rules, but that's for another place; for the moment, the two existing rules:
- Reserve Vessels. Chaos vessels in this list are chosen as normal Reserve vessels, at a rate of 1:3 non-Chaos vessels of the same type (i.e. cruiser, battleship, not heavy cruiser, grand cruiser, cruiser). This gets pretty restrictive with the Chaos cruisers, and Rogue Traders would need an exception already.
- Strange Happenings: Ships rolling doubles for a command check become Unreliable; if they also fail the command check, they also may do nothing but make the minimum move forwards. Unreliable ships will attempt to disengage when crippled. Against Chaos fleets, Unreliable ships that roll a second double on a Command check will attempt to disengage as if crippled and Unreliable. If the second double is also a failure, the ship immediately defects to the Chaos player for the rest of the game, and no victory points are awarded to the ship. This is a big and fairly complicated rule and should probably be split into Unreliable and Defectors it's also a pretty huge malus for the IN player, particularly when playing Chaos. Characterful though, so perhaps it could be compensated with more access to Chaos vessels or cheaper ships (which could then make the Imperial ships in the list a bit more differentiated from normal fleets).
So, some ideas there in another rather long post :P But the aim is to stimulate discussion more than anything, and to present the basic idea. I can imagine List 2 with less restrictive Chaos choices, cheaper ships, and Strange Happenings being a pretty functional and characterful fleet for mothball reserves and for the odd game on its own.
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Battleships:
Other than the one Retribution you've mentioned, the Vanquisher is the only Class confirmed to be sitting in a Mothball state (5 in BF Bakka), however it is just a terrible ship so i can see why it would be.
As for the chaos battleships, i think it's in the lore that they are all classes which were prone to desertion
Grand Cruisers:
yep, most of these are in Mothball/Reserve fleets and like with battleships, the specifically chaos ones were prone to desertion, hence them no longer being in Imperial use
Chaos Cruisers:
The reason for the lack of Chaos Carriers in reserve or mothball fleets is because they were the result of the gerox perogative and most of them turned traitor, the few that remained were destroyed. Although Space Marines can have them for venerble Battle Barges, I interpereted this as Space Marines doing as they please or the rules are just a representation of an older Pre-Heresy ship.
Hades, Murder and Carange class ships are indeed older Imperial designs which have just been replaced and phased out over time, they all have a 'modern' Imperial Navy counterpart. BFG:XR adds a few to this list i beleive such as the Cardinal Class Heavy Cruiser
Imperial Cruisers:
All of these are 'new' ships, the basic design is the current standard so i doubt any of these would be in mothball fleets or even in reserves as they are needed on the frontline. some goes for the battlecruisers.
With the light cruisers, the Voss type are meant to be a staple of Segmentum Solar fleets, the duantless is again a 'modern' ship so i can't see it being mothballed.