Witch hunter, zelots question

[jchaos79]

Hi, regarding the special of zelots. The quote is from Trial armies page 19

1. Zealots. Zealots form the main part of a Witch Hunter
army, and are drawn from mobs whipped up by priest’s
sermons. These troops gain +1 Attack in the first round of
combat against Undead or Chaos (regardless of who charged)
and will always use their initiative to charge these enemies if
possible. If victorious in combat with Undead or Chaos like
enemies they must pursue or advance where possible.

My question is: +1 Attack per stand   or    +1 Attack to the unit  ?

[Bel]

IMO +1 At per stand.

[jchaos79]

well my opinion is +1 to the unit.

The unit is 35 points with 3/- per 1000 points. When having the stats of 4/3/0 when fighting against chaos or undead makes the army extremly overpowered. They can get for 350 points ten units with 4 attacks.

If it is +1 to the unit is like all the units of zelots have when fighting against chaos or undead have the sword of power. I see it can give flavour to the army but not making the army unbeatable.

what is your opinion about that?

Is Andy Judson over there? or someone who can reach him?

 

[Bel]

Nevertheless I think that here we have simply not a best description.  The zealot rule applies only against Chaos/undead, so it is quite specific. Otherwise this unit seems a bit overpriced. And I didn't find any special rule in army selectors that would add 1 At to the whole number of unit's attacks.
Just remember that only true faith can make wonders.

Though it is IMO, you may play as you wish and playtest this unit with both options.

[Guthwine]

Well bretonnian peasant have the same stats cost 30 points and get a -1 command penalty, so Id say +1 attack for the whole unit would be the balanced way.  But from the descripton it sound more like +1 per base.

You could also make them a 1/3 option so you can only take a maximum of 6 units in a 2000 point army. After all true believers are hard to find.

[jchaos79]

Also undead infantry cost 30 and have 2/3/6+

sum up:
zelots 35 option 1)     3/3/0  or 4/3/0 against chaos or undeads   
               option  2)     3/3/0  or  3/3/0 against chaos or undeads special +1attack per unit

No limit of zelots. The army also have Flagellants -/4 per 1000 points , but limitated cavalry...

mmmh still thinking how to do it,

maybe  I am more satisfied with option 2 but I think I need to playtest something

[Edmund2011]

+1 per stand seems too much for only 35 points! (15 dice attacking in the open in the first round of every combat in the game. Defending 12 dice. No limit of units.). They are much more terryfing indeed than Chaos or Undead!! 

- halbardiers 3/3/6+ 45 points
- Undead 2/3/6+ 30 points
- orcs 4/3/6+ 60 points
- Zealots 4/3/0 35 points

If you see the comparison, they are nearer to Orcs stats than to skeletons, but orcs fight with 4 dice all rounds against all enemies.

I would do:

1- Leave 35 points with +1 per unit (not per stand)

or

2- Increase cost to 45 points with +1 per stand.

But these options should be playtested a little bit, anyway, IMO.

[Kesseki]

I agree with Jchaos and Edmund, when a +1 per stand has to be applied, the text explains it clearly (see for example the Cold Ones that has a +1 to Attacks  attribute in the first round of every combat).

well, this is how i see it, but the explanation of Edmund has more value for me than mine ^_^.

[Getlord]

As far as I remember it is +1 per stand.

Edmund's comparison is not fully fair as the guys get benefit only for Chaos and Undead and they must charge and pursue. +1 Attack per unit only against certain armies with the obligation to charge/no save would be really very limited ability.

This is my opinion. I was one of the person who consolidated overall feedback concerning all the mistakes and unclear statements in the trial armies just before Bel did all this incredible work with final consolidation.

The statement is definately not full and this the mistake, but I believe it is +1A to the characteristic i.e. +1A per stand. Further discussion is of course possible, but I would stick to this intepretation.

Cheers,
Get

[jchaos79]

Ok, thanks.


I played with my chaos army only once vs witch hunter. It is true also that my opponent is a better player/general than me. But I found the the list very hard.

http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=2181.0

One game is not enough to judge fairly, so I should play more (also had very little time to play).

Any feedback for undead/chaos players who had battle against witch hunter?

[Getlord]

Ok, thanks.


I played with my chaos army only once vs witch hunter. It is true also that my opponent is a better player/general than me. But I found the the list very hard.

http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=2181.0

Anyway your summary is excellent and underlines also the fact you fought the defended infantry army in most areas. That's explaining difficulties in winning. I didn't test the army so I will not be able to add any value for this discussion beside the fact it should be conducted further in th Experimental Rules Feedback part of the forum :-)

Best regards,
Get

[empireaddict]

Hi, I've been reading the forum for a while now and have been meaning to make a contribution for a while, but never got round to it.  Have played WM a fair bit over the last 10 years and have ended up with a bit of an Empire addiction.

I have a Witch Hunter army and I think 35 points for a unit of Zealots is about right or perhaps a little expensive.  The best comparison is probably with Bretonnian peasants; they get 3 basic attacks regardless of the opponent and cost only 30 points. 

Yes, the peasants sometimes have a command penalty unless brigaded with other types of unit, but the biggest problem I have found with Zealots is that (like Flagellants) they are often uncontrollable as they must always charge on initiative.  I found the best way to counter this is to put bowmen in line in front of Zealots in column.

[Lex]

Ditto for keeping Bretonian Knights in check and my Dwarven Slayers are often "guarding the rear".....

Remember that a unit is NOT penalized for looking "away", and Zealots work great as a rearguard in that aspect !