Pantheon Sector, M38

[Islacrusez]

The blurb for the Chaos Space Marine Battle Barge in the Additional Ship Compendium mentions a massive battle between Chaos and Imperial forces when the Night Lords amassed 4 chaos battle barges, 13 strike cruisers, and 36 assorted escorts (and a superwarship) in the Pantheon Sector. The Imperium is said to have intercepted this with 5 separate battlegroups.


Is this canon? Is there an "official" account of this battle, precise fleet composition, and the nature of the super warship with the mass of two Emperor class battleships?


I'd kinda like to recreate this battle for my own amusement (and the sheer hilarity of amassing such a fleet), and am curious if there is further information on the encounter. I'm happy to make it up as I go along, and am doing exactly that so far. I've estimated the Chaos fleet to be 5k points without the superbattleship. The superbattleship has been statted and comes to about 800 points, which I've rounded to 1000. This brings Chaos to 6k, and the answering Imperium fleets should come to an estimated total of 7.5k-10k


If no official fleet list exists, what would you bring to counter this threat?

Scouts report:
4 Chaos Space Marine Battle Barges
13 Chaos Space Marine Strike Cruisers
36 Escort Vessels
Unidentified Warship. Estimated mass exceeds Emperor Class Battleship by 100%


Personally I'm expecting at least one SM battlegroup, with perhaps two battle barges. At least one Nemesis fleet carrier. At least one admech detachment, though it could easily be one of the smaller battlegroups. I can even imagine one battlegroup consisting entirely of 10-12 Enforcers, but that's just silly.

[radu lykan]

If aiming to actually play the game I would go with the fun route of 5 battle groups of 1500 points, each controlled by a different player all against 1 player controlling the chaos fleet. each imperial battle group would be chosen from a different fleet list so 1 Armageddon, 1 bakka, 1 gothic, 1 mech, 1 marine etc. would be a fun game.

Myself i think my half of battle fleet eschataris could take the list on, if I lost, there's always my brother in laws half   (if he ever finishes it :p )

[Islacrusez]

I warn you that I've used the Hellfire as an inspiration for the superbattleship, and at 800 points worth of stupid, it is really, really stupid.  It was aimed to be absolutely terrifying, and I think I nailed it:


The design is the same as the Hellfire, except using a superbattleship as a base.

Thus it has a broadside length of 4 weapon slots. It has 4 chaos batteries top and 4 bottom, of which 4 are straight WB and 4 are WB/Lance combos. Separating these two is a trench, housing a number of Imperial macro batteries, much like the Dauntless battery or one of the battlecruisers.

On the prow there is a large open mouth. Like the regular Chaos cruisers have teeth coming down, this will have teeth going up and coming down in a large mouth shape, between which will be a launch bay. Demonic facial features will be defined by torpedo launch bays, also prow.

Oversized batteries on the dorsal mount. Lance and WB. (Should only be one, I know, but super battleship.)


Stats:

Hits: 16
Shields: 5
Turrets: 5
Armour: 5+

Speed: 15-20

Prow: Torpedoes Str 6, Speed 30
Prow: Launch Bays, 6 Squadrons

Broadside: Macro Batteries Str 30, Range 30 (or less)
Broadside: Weapons Battery Str 20, Range 60
Broadside: Weapons Battery Str 10, Range 45
Broadside: Lance Battery Str 8, Range 45

Dorsal: Macro Cannons Str 12, Range 60
Dorsal: Lance Battery Str 4, Range 60

Calculated Point Value: 812
Estimated Point Value: 1000 - 2000


Special Rules:

Cumbersome - May not use CTNH or AAF
Hard to Miss - Incoming fire gains a left column shift
Priority Target - Unusual objects draw fire, no Leadership test needed to fire on this vessel
Oversized Battery - It's almost faster to turn the ship than the guns, Dorsal weapons may only fire in adjacent arcs on consecutive turns.
Powerful Reactor - Add 2d6 when calculating radius of explosion


Is this terrifying?

[radu lykan]

Seems a bit excessive are those broadsides a total for the ship or is that on each side?
12hit points seems a bit low for something that big.
It's seems a lot more powerful than even a ramillies star fort, maybe tone it down a teeny tiny notch? 
Or increase the cost

[Islacrusez]

Bah, that was supposed to be 16 hitpoints; I've got it written everywhere but transcribed it wrong.

And yes, that's a broadside each way. I'm thinking of dropping the range on the str 30 batteries, or making them have 10cm increments and no bonus for short range.

Nonetheless, that's a broadside that vaporises anything it comes into short range with, so my only advice is not to. However, it seems a lot of Imperial ships are designed for brawling, which would make this ship very scary indeed. However, a fleet carrier or two, some torpedo squadrons, and a few NCs would probably be a good answer. However the 5 turrets... is 5 turrets.

One tactic would be just to do your best to stay behind it.

The scary part is that the Smotherman points it up at 812. The points cost will balance out the deficit between the 5k of chaos fleet and the 7.5-10k of the imperial fleet. Remember that for this engagement the Chaos fleet is fixed, but the Imperial fleet is free. So whatever it takes to barely defeat this fleet will be the point cost xD But yeah, I'm thinking Imperial fleet will be in the 10k range, an average of 2k per battlegroup. Maybe have a few under-strength, so an overall average of 1.5-1.8 or so?

Again, it's designed to be terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. That said a few good crits will take half the chaos fleet with it.

[Armiger84]

The problem with mega battleships are critical hit rules.  One port side armament disabled crit and you've got a massive blind spot.  And to be honest, an Emperor-class BB or a squadron of marine strike cruisers (3-4) launching a combined wave of thunderhawks could turn a monster ship into a mobile practice target in a turn with turret suppression, assuming they get past defensive fighters.  Sure, you're talking about a wave of 5 fighters to distract turrets and 3 assault boats, or the thunderhawk tasking equivalent, but even if that doesn't work, a big combined torpedo salvo can force turrets to ignore the assault boats too.

I'm personally really partial to just using the space hulk rules instead for mega ships for that reason.  You're a little limited on weapon choices, sure, but most of the balancing speed and targeting special rules are already in place, and critical hit results aren't as amazingly crippling to the ship either.

If I had to choose between turret defense for a combined salvo of torpedoes off of a 6-strong viper squadron (or even a 12 boarding torpedo salvo off of marine Hunters) or a wave of 6-8 Thunderhawks, I couldn't really tell you which is be more afraid of.  And in a really large point game (where a mega ship will likely appear), either of those can happen easily without the drawbacks normally associated with putting all your eggs in one basket in a smaller game.  I'd just aim to disable it by turn 2-3 and then ignore it for the rest of the game.

[Islacrusez]

While true, it only makes the mega battleship a safer bet for a fair fight. It's supposed to be terrifying, no more, no less. It's still supposed to lose.

I think the ship would be most vulnerable to bombard cannons, due to ignoring armour and causing more crits than reasonable. The problem will be getting those weapons into range. A skilled player would do his utmost to ensure that your most devastating weapons cannot be brought to bear.

Also remember you would need to disable both the broadside and the dorsal weapons to generate a blindspot.


Mind you, the easiest way to resolve this is just to play the battle and see what happens. Time to get building I think!

[Evil Mic]

I think, the biggest problem for this big ship will be nova cannons.

With 7.5-10k Pt the imperial navy can take some of them. With a big base and enough nova shots you will do a sufficien amount of damage.
And as I see it, the defens capabilities of this ship do not scale with it's  offensiv powers.
a small calculation: assume: 1 NC/1k Pt
this makes (depending on the size of the base) 3+ direkt hits. wich makes an average of >10.5(-5 shilds) points of damge. Hard enough to be really scary.
Especially when you consider, that your enemy knows this and takes some more NCs or some of the scatterts shots do still hit directly...

[Islacrusez]

The nova cannon approach is aided massively by not requiring the leadership test to not fire at closer targets. The scatter will be 3d6 for any range where it won't be shooting back, although it's still a good chance of direct hits. Assuming the rolls are all average, yes we are talking serious damage - enough to be crippling in the following turn. Outrageous good luck could end the battle right there - 9 NCs, max 9d6, max 54 damage. The resulting explosion will deal enough damage to the rest of the fleet. Outrageously poor luck could result in no damage to the monster whatsoever.

That said, it's likely the NCs will be the other prime target, and there's a whole Chaos fleet that gets to shoot. Coordinated fire could decimate the hard hitters. That said, the battle could be over with the first NC volley, and that's a good 150cm range.

Anyone know the radius of the large base for BFG? That way we can calculate the probabilities of the scatters.


Also, I'm happy to raise shields further, but I think if raised too far, the ship will simply become indestructible. Hits, again, can be raised further, but if raised too far it'll raise the survivability too far. This ship is likely to be dropping cruisers every single time it fires. The longer it lives, the lower your chances of survival.

It's not quite a glass cannon, but it is the biggest target in the building and most likely the priority target.

Also worth noting is that the NCs could be rendered ineffective by annoying things being in the way.

[horizon]

If shields go to six bombers can no longer damage the vessel, which creates another special rule to bypass that problem.
(macro batteries=weapon batteries?)

max broadside power:

@ 60cm: 20 batteries + 12 macros + 4 lances.
@ 45cm: 30 batteries + 12 macros + 12 lances.
@ 30cm: 60 batteries + 12 macros + 12 lances

That's sick. And for an one-off battle it might be funny but I would not like to see this as a regular available ship in any circumstance.... it takes away some fun.... just roll dice and kill three enemy ships per turn (=~600pts).

[Islacrusez]

If shields go to six bombers can no longer damage the vessel, which creates another special rule to bypass that problem.

Don't bombers bypass shields? I wouldn't put turrets to 6 for that exact reason though.

(macro batteries=weapon batteries?)

Indeed. I've used the three terms to differentiate between physically different guns, but for gameplay they're all the same - ordinary gunnery weapons. I was considering bombardment cannons, but it's stupid enough as it is and I didn't feel like giving it the 6+ SM armour.

max broadside power:

@ 60cm: 20 batteries + 12 macros + 4 lances.
@ 45cm: 30 batteries + 12 macros + 12 lances.
@ 30cm: 60 batteries + 12 macros + 12 lances

However, that is maximum broadside firepower at point of origin. The firepower will drop by the time it hits the target, and since we're shooting at Imperial ships then half of them will have 6+ prows facing us, or they might be 6+ space marines for good measure. I'm also still considering shortening the 30cm batteries - I want them really strong at short range, but I think 30cm is waaaay too long - most small Imperial ships don't shoot any further than that. Would you recommend just shortening it to 20 or 15?

It also means that the offside firing line will have a much lower power if both the dorsal mounts are sent to one side. With their special rule, it also means you can't switch sides on the dorsal mount until the second turn after firing one way.

That's sick. And for an one-off battle it might be funny but I would not like to see this as a regular available ship in any circumstance.... it takes away some fun.... just roll dice and kill three enemy ships per turn (=~600pts).

It is, and I absolutely agree. This is not a ship that should be for regular combat. In a way, this is a specific scenario, rather than a regular battle (even though the scenario is just a really big battle).

However, as Imperium is supposed to win the battle, it should be noted that it could still get heavily nerfed.


Oh and if you think I can "just roll dice and kill three ships", you haven't seen my rolling 

[horizon]

Okay then.

And I meant turrets instead of shields.