Skirmishers

[honestmistake]

The skirmisher thread in discussion + my game last night have me wondering about Skirmishers....
* When added to a unit a skirmisher raises the unit size by +1
* When added to a unit a skirmisher stand can be removed as a casualty
* a skirmisher cannot act as an independent unit

So... what happens if I remove the skirmisher stand as a casualty but the unit is not destroyed, is it still worth victory points or does the whole unit need to die to grant the victory points?

Also, what would happen if I chose not to take the skirmisher as a casualty and it is the last remaining stand? (can i actually do this? Rules say it can NEVER be a seperate unite so i doubt it.)

One last question (for now)  A skirmisher cannot be fielded as an individual unit but does it still count as a unit for calculating break point?

on a related note, similar questions arise for the Salamander in the Lizardman army.

[Lex]

The skirmisher thread in discussion + my game last night have me wondering about Skirmishers....
* When added to a unit a skirmisher raises the unit size by +1
* When added to a unit a skirmisher stand can be removed as a casualty
* a skirmisher cannot act as an independent unit

So... what happens if I remove the skirmisher stand as a casualty but the unit is not destroyed, is it still worth victory points or does the whole unit need to die to grant the victory points?

A 4 stand unit yields 50% of its VP when HALF the unit is casualties. With a 3 stand unit that means it pays to "casevac" remaining stands, when the unit has an attached skirmisher stand the 2 stands fighting are slightly less likely to be gobbled.

Also, what would happen if I chose not to take the skirmisher as a casualty and it is the last remaining stand? (can i actually do this? Rules say it can NEVER be a seperate unite so i doubt it.)

The skirmisher stand still "represents" its parent unit.
The rules as stated are meant to imply that you can NOT have a "unit" of skirmishers..... actually it might be interesting to work the maths and see if this would be viable....

One last question (for now)  A skirmisher cannot be fielded as an individual unit but does it still count as a unit for calculating break point?

Correct, so it might be better to leave that skirmisher stand in the field instead of a stand of its parent unit when there are already 2 skirmisher stands in the graveyard.

on a related note, similar questions arise for the Salamander in the Lizardman army.

[honestmistake]

So... what happens if I remove the skirmisher stand as a casualty but the unit is not destroyed, is it still worth victory points or does the whole unit need to die to grant the victory points?

A 4 stand unit yields 50% of its VP when HALF the unit is casualties. With a 3 stand unit that means it pays to "casevac" remaining stands, when the unit has an attached skirmisher stand the 2 stands fighting are slightly less likely to be gobbled.

The Victory conditions state this though? "2. An enemy unit reduced from three or more stands to one stand earns half its points value(including the value of magic items). An enemy unit which starts the game at one or two stands must be destroyed to earn points"

Given your point about the skirmisher stand still representing it's parent unit (I agree that this should be the case) then i would think it would not be subject to victory points if removed as a casualty (it never counts as a whole unit and thus is part of a 4 stand unit  and subject to any rule or effect that targets that unit (ie: terror, immune to terror, bonus's from spells etc!)

[Lex]

So... what happens if I remove the skirmisher stand as a casualty but the unit is not destroyed, is it still worth victory points or does the whole unit need to die to grant the victory points?

A 4 stand unit yields 50% of its VP when HALF the unit is casualties. With a 3 stand unit that means it pays to "casevac" remaining stands, when the unit has an attached skirmisher stand the 2 stands fighting are slightly less likely to be gobbled.

The Victory conditions state this though? "2. An enemy unit reduced from three or more stands to one stand earns half its points value(including the value of magic items). An enemy unit which starts the game at one or two stands must be destroyed to earn points"

Given your point about the skirmisher stand still representing it's parent unit (I agree that this should be the case) then i would think it would not be subject to victory points if removed as a casualty (it never counts as a whole unit and thus is part of a 4 stand unit  and subject to any rule or effect that targets that unit (ie: terror, immune to terror, bonus's from spells etc!)

Hmmm OK, all the more reason to have skirmshers in that case...

[Claus]

I only can agree.

If you have a unit of skirmisher the main reason to use them is to have a higher range of wounds, more attacks (as 4 stands) and .... and this is one of the most important parts to negate victory when only 1-2 stands of the unit are killed.

Of course there are also other tactical possibilities (protetc war engines better, negate edge attacks...etc.)

Skirmishers for sure have it values in gameplay.

Regards
Claus

[Getlord]

Hi,
- I do not know if I understood right but Skirmisher stand does not increase Break Point of the army. Never. Because: Skirmisher stands never count as independent units under any circumstances.
- Please note that in Errata 2009 the Unit Size of Skirmishers was changed from 1 to +1 to avoid any misinterpretations.
- Victory points are given for whole unit (incl. skirmishers) or half of the total value (incl. skirmishers) if the unit is reduced to one stand (no matter which one).
- Leaving only skirmishers is in fact possible in my opinion.

Please comment if you have doubts or different opinion.
Getlord

[jchaos79]

In my opinion I agree with Getlord in all the points.

[Claus]

Yeah...were wishful thinking from my side....Skirmishers don´t have 360° view....mixed it up.

[Getlord]

This below is a comment (not a rule)
Claus, but from the unit perspective we can say that with proper placing of skirmishers you can reach up to around ~350 degrees I would say (if unit is placed in line and skirmishers are facing backwards but are a little bit "in front" of the front line of regular stands).

[honestmistake]

Hi,
- I do not know if I understood right but Skirmisher stand does not increase Break Point of the army. Never. Because: Skirmisher stands never count as independent units under any circumstances.
- Please note that in Errata 2009 the Unit Size of Skirmishers was changed from 1 to +1 to avoid any misinterpretations.
- Victory points are given for whole unit (incl. skirmishers) or half of the total value (incl. skirmishers) if the unit is reduced to one stand (no matter which one).
- Leaving only skirmishers is in fact possible in my opinion.

Please comment if you have doubts or different opinion.
Getlord

I am leaning more and more towards this interpretation (I would though, it's my army  ) Currently we are playing that the Skirmisher scores victory points if it is removed as a casualty which i do feel is wrong if it is part of a 4 stand unit rather than being a single stand attatched to a unit (which the +1 unit size could suggest either) I am less certain that it is reasonable to leave the skirmisher as the last man standing (so to speak) as this could very easily be seen as leaving it to act as an independent unit which is expressly forbidden.

[Getlord]

- Leaving only skirmishers is in fact possible in my opinion.

Please comment if you have doubts or different opinion.
Getlord

I am less certain that it is reasonable to leave the skirmisher as the last man standing (so to speak) as this could very easily be seen as leaving it to act as an independent unit which is expressly forbidden.

Very interesting point. First fact is that this situation is not covered by the rules. Second is that this stand cannot be given orders as it is not the unit. The situation has the precedence with War wagon without Horses stand (somehow - as it still can be defended). It is rather up to the players to decide before the battle how to proceed with skirmishers as a last stand. But if you decide on the interpretation that it is not the unit, and therefore it is in fact more or less useless (even if present on the table), then the situation to leave them as a last stand will not be anymore attractive.
Compromise without forbidding what is not directly forbiden in the ruleset.

All in all both interpretation should be acceptable.