Chasing Mice?

[Kretus]

We have one polish player, who fields always at least 20 units of rat swarms.
We are able to beat him, it's hard but not impossible.
I think HE and Khemri are two best armies, not rats. Mice are nothing compared to "shock" flyers joined by dragon mount and attacking your flank.

[spiritusXmachina]

Lex, could you plz put a Playtest Report link into the Publication/Development Section? So, it would be easier to find it again for other players too.

Greetings,
Gerald

[Claus]

One question on my side with regard to "Screaming Bell"

Why the hell does it give +1 on all Skaven Commanders Command abbility that are within 30cm range of the bell and in additon -1 to the comand ability of each enemy hero that is within 30cm range of it.

You remember Lizzardmen and "Divine Guidance" ... it´s almost the same or even worse in my opinion and there is big discussion to change "Divine Guidance".
Don´t tell me Skaven are poor as you can only command them within 20cm....it´s the same for Lizzardment Cold Blooded ones.

If you position your heroes well ..... you get in total 4 Leadership 9 heroes (including the general) and in addition reduce the command ability of your opponent.

I took myself some time to think about Skaven abilities.....and to be honest....now I can understand Spiritus becoming a mice chaser

Don´t get me wrong......I like Skaven army and most of the part or their rules but "Screaming Bell"...come on this item is completely screwed. I will do some games vers Skaven with my Armies (Daemon, Lizzardmen, Araby...etc. and I will give reports)  .... but one thing is clear ....don´t put your troop in difficult terrain if Skaven is fielding "Screaming Bell" as you probably will not be in a position to command them. ...especially if Gutter Runners are part of the army.

Don´t answer ....but think about it.....+1 on own command values and -1 to command values of opponent ..... in worst case meaning a leadership 10 general and leadership 9 heroes for a mass army !!!

[spiritusXmachina]

The +1 on command does only apply to sorcerers and heroes. So no 10cmd general!
I agree with everything else though.

Greetings,
Gerald

[Meister.Petz]

Yep ... the game vs Gerald's Chaos showed me how amazing the bell is ... a bit too amazing I guess.

[Claus]

Hi, had this weekend one of my games vers Skaven. I put my Lizzardmen army on the battlefield (applied trial rules where you can give Divine Guidance only to 1 Skink Hero withing 20cm before starting commands and if he fails command phase is over as like the general failed to command)

We had a very nice game that ended after turn 4 (No I will no tell you result before....read the whole report)

Skaven had a Breakpoint of 16 (a lot fo Rat Swarms, around 6 units Clanrats, 2 units Rat Ogres, 2 units Monks, 2-3 units Storm Vermin, 3 units Jesszails and 2 units Gutter runners, 4 units Warp Lightning Cannons, 1 Screaming Bell, 1 General, 2 Sorcerer, 1 heroe)

Lizzardmen had a Breakpoint of 10 (9 Units Saurus Warriors, 2 Units Kroxigor, 4 Units Skinks, 4 Units Cold one Riders, 3 Skink Heroes, 2 Shamans 1 Slan)

We had nice Battefield with lot of terrain (woods, fields, hills and house).

Skaven started to move in 2 Big Brigades. 1 Surrounding the Bell and 1 with the 4 Warp Lightning Cannons. Nothing real important to say then this. Skaven player made 2 mistakes. 1 one. He put the Gutter runners in a field around 15 cm in front of my troops (not visible for me) and 1 sorcere on my left flank to cast nasty spells on my Cold one Riders.

Thus said in my turn I took the chance to get them both. I charged the Gutter Runners in the field with 2 units Cold one Riders and where able to trap the Skaven Sorcerer in the woods with a unit Saurus warriors and Skinks. I als positioned 1 Brigade of 2 Saurus Warrior units and 1 Skink unit in a field of grain almost in the center of the left flank. Magic....yes Magic   I decided to go for snipering the Warp Lighnting Cannons and had Succes. I killed 2 of them by Magic.

Skavens 2nd turn....nothing real important to say. Command of big Brigade failed as units where in the wood and the dice showed a nine. General put the Brigade of remaining Warp Lightning Canon, Clan Rats and Swarms together as the snipered Canons where the linking unit between the whole Brigade.

Lizzardmens turn again. Positioned my troops better in the Center and succeeded in getting 5 units (4 x Saurus Warriors and 2 times Skins in the field of grain that were in the center of the left flank. 1 Unit skinks in the Front supported by Saurus warriors and 2 units of Saurus warrior on the edge looking at the center of the battlefield. Close enough at skaven to give -1 on Commands on first 2 units. Magic. This time I did not sniper on WarpLightning Canon....I forbid Rat Ogres to Attack.
Heros where placed around 10-15 cm behind their troops in order to avoid the -1 penalty on commands from the Screaming Bell.

3 turn Skaven. Skaven succeeded to Command and attacked my Skinks with Monks and the Saurus Warriors with Storm Vermin. Supported by the Rat Ogres and Clan Rats. Shooting of Warplightning did not do any harm as closest target where Kroxigors at the center on defended status. Saved all 2 hits.
Stand and shoot of Skinks did 2 hits at Monks. Monks + 1 Stand Storm Vermin with total 18 attacks hit on Skinks and succeeded in  doing 5 hits damage. Remaining 2 stands Storm Vermin did 1 hit damage on Saurus Warriors. I myself did 6 hits damage on Monks and 2 hits damage on Storm Vermin. I decided to pursue but only with Saurus Warriors at the Storm Vermins. Push back confused the supporting Rat Ogres. I did again hits damage and lost myself 1 Stand Saurus Warriors. Fallback brought me in the back of the Rat Ogres and Supporting Clanrats that were faced at the front by another 2 units Saurus Warriors.

3 turn Lizzardmen. Charging remaining stand Monks in the front with Saurus Warriors, Clarats in the Back with 2 remaining stands Skinks.Remaining stand Storm Vermin in the Front With Saurus Warriors and Rat Ogres in the Back with remaining 2 stands of Saurus warriors. Started combat at Rat Ogres (killed them) proceeded with remaining Storm Vermin, Clanrats and Monks (killed in first turn allowing to advance 2 units Saurus warriors into the front of Rat Swarms and Clanrats and the other unit Saurus Warriors inton their edge) Made a fall back with Skinks and Saurus warriors that only had 1 stand left. The new close combat allowed me to kill 1 unit Swarms, 1 unit Clan Rats and another unit Rat ogres by gettin myself only minor damage. Only lost 1 Stand of Saurus warriors.
Made fallback with both units into the center of the battlefield (15cm Fall back) allowing me to be prepared for any countercharge on units that want to destroy the Saurus warriors.
Again I positioned my heros behind my troops to avoid affect of Screaming Bell.

4th turn Skaven. Initiative Charge on remaining 2 stands of Saurus Warriors and initiative Charge on full Saurus warrior unit in the center Battlefield. Commands brought some support ot the close combats but the -1 command penalty of my troops being close to the skaven were working again and only the Brigade with remaining Warp Lighting Canons were positioned on a hill on ther right center flank of the battlefield surrounded by 3 units Jezzails. Shooting of Warp Lightning killed 1 Stand Saurus warriors (but no confusion caused). Close combat killed the unit of remaining 2 stands Saurus Warriors and the one in the center of battlefield ended with a draw.

Turn of Lizzardmen. Charged the Storm Vermins and Clanrats the succeeded in getting the Draw result in the center Battlefield. Charged the jezzails on the hill with Kroxigor units (stand and shoot cause only 1 hit damage) and Charged with 2 commands and 2 units of Cold one Riders the back units of the Skaven.
Center Charge killed 2 units Skaven(Storm Vermin and Clanrats) and I advanced into next units of Clanrats and Rat Swarms. Charge of Cold one Riders killed another 2 units of Skaven (Clan Rats and Swarms) and had to make Fall Back. Charge of 2nd unit of cold one Riders kille Rat swarms, Clan Rats, the Screaming Bell (with which I got in accidential contact) and another unit of Rat Swarms.....

Here the story ends......Breakpoint 16 of Skaven army reached at this turn.
My losses. 1 unit Saurus warriors and 2 units of Saurus and 1 unit auf Skinks lost 2 stands each.

Feedback: Skaven are nice and powerfull army but if you know the weak point of this army then you can do it. Allways take care of keeping your heroes far enough away from the Screaming Bell (51 cm is advised by me). Let the Skaven the 1st strike but try to be in defended position. They have many units but they are weak in armor.
Keep your units and Brigades broad enough in order to avoid being surrounded by standard troops. (he still can put the gutter runners into your back if you are in terrain but hey.... no risk no fun. When charging concentrate on the hard hitting troops like Monks, Rat Ogres and Storm Vermins....as soon as they are gone the Skaven army has lost their teeth.

O.K. some of the dices rolled were into my favour but not really much of them. I would say...it was pretty much average result over the whole batlle.

Next report will follow when I challenge the rat pack in our Warmaster campaign

P.S.:
I´m still convinced that the Screaming Bell is to powerfull !!!

[Carrington]

NB, screaming bell is one per army: raising the question, up to what point-level is it unbalanced?

[Lex]

NB, screaming bell is one per army: raising the question, up to what point-level is it unbalanced?

As it stand right now I would say all the way to app 3k on the table. Remember that the Ratz can move in HUGE brigades, I have not done the excersize yet, but my guess is that MOST units, if not all, in a 3000 pts game with a legal armylist that maximizes breakpoint COULD be commanded with the Bell's bonus.

It is not as much the Skaven command bonus that seems to be an issue (but beware those players that use it to get a Ld 10 general  --> Grey Seer General does NOT get the bonus !). There are several ways that things could be brought a bit more into balance:

1 - only apply the Skaven command bonus WHEN the Bell is used as mount for the Skaven General
2 - only apply the Opponent command penealty WHEN the Bell is used as mount for the Skaven General

Both options mean NO second front with the LD 9 general bringing up more troops and the General does not get to move freely over the board to command what is needed

3 - have the Skaven player start with the Bell in Skaven "command" mode, but allow him to switch "modes" during the Shooting/Casting phase of his turn, either with or without rolling for it (on 4+ ??)

or for even more random fun

4 - at the start of each turn roll a d6, the result determines the actual range for that turn: 1 - 10 cm, 2-3 - 20 cm, 4-6 30 cm.

Personaly I would not mind to play option 4, but I think the realy challenge would be playing option 1/2

BTW, for those chasing mice, note that Claus very accuRATly describes the way to take the ratz down (that is, other then sending for the Pied Piper)

[spiritusXmachina]

Yes, Claus found a way. But not every army nor every terrain will allow such a game.
Claus spent some thoughts on that I guess, but not before the whole issue was brought up first.
Some times it needs stepping stones ...

[Meister.Petz]

So how does that mounting thing work?
The bell moves with a brigade ... so if I put it in the "main brigade" of the army I always have the general on the bell, which is moving in the brigade and therefore never gets out of the 20cm?
 

[Lex]

Yup   

Now there should be SOME downside to that indeed.....   ow... there is ... killing the bell kills the General --> game over.

And believe me, the bell IS killable

also, if you manage to strand the bell then the general cant move   

[spiritusXmachina]

Well, some Skaven players never even played the Bell cause of its cost. So they would not miss it, would they?

Serious. I don't think Skaven need a "Command-Enhancer". Maybe they would have needed it with their old Advance Rule. But with that restriction gone and with their special Brigade rule they will even move more troops with one command than any other army! And even with a missed command - they keep together!
The only real danger is that someone crashes into their ranks and splits them up. Even that is hard with 4 or 5 ranks of rats. I think the most dangerous foe is the good old cannon and the fireball-spell.

I still see, that it could be important for Skaven to keep the enemy from attacking first. So why not give them the "Anger of the God" spell (one of the most important meta-spells imo)? And take away the Plague ie? (I find it strange for an army to have two different damage spells anyway as they could use both on one unit...)

There must be something else interesting that the Bell could do... What about every unit touching it has terror? Would'nt that fit to the fluff? And sounds useful... Points cost got to be reduced though.

Greetings,
Gerald

[azrael71]

Wasn't the bell originally just a mount for the general?
If so why was it changed and how did it get through the playtest phase?

[Lex]

Wasn't the bell originally just a mount for the general?
If so why was it changed and how did it get through the playtest phase?

Changes in Skaven were mostly done "in house" as was playtesting at that time. To be honnest, I played a LOT of Skaven games too, but I would (almost) never take the bell. Which was partly due to the fact that I did not like the original rules, did not like cost4value and, maybe strangely most importantly.... I got my Bell from the late Steve Hambrook, but without the actual Bell to put inside....  and due to circumstances, I never got that missing piece

Back to the issues at hand.....

I would not mind putting the general up and thus negotiating the outside 20 cm penealty IF the general needs to stay up and this thus adds extra vulnerability, and the risk of being stranded if the Bell looses contact with its "pushers"  <--  I think we DO need to define how this should be "configured". Personaly I wont put the general on anyway, but I can see people who will, AND I can see plenty of countermeasures

The anti-terror effect of the Bell on skaven units in contact with is fine with me, and I did earlier give suggestions how the command-range issue might be adressed.

Remember we have facilities for reporting battles around and when we can find consensus on what version to test, give it a spin and find a communialy acceptable sollution.

[spiritusXmachina]

As you all know I don't see the bell as the only problem.

Imo Skaven should be changed in a package. As they have standard advancing rules now they should also cost standard points. Now Skaven have an even higher breakpoint (I'd say +2 average) than they should have (and need).

There is a basic decision to make:

1) Should Skaven get their old Advance-Restriction back? (Means they are only allowed to do an Advance Move if they destroyed their opponent in the first round of combat). Then their pricing is perfectly ok I think.

2) Should Skaven have the possibility to advance as any other army has too? Then the pricing (of a lot of units) should be changed.

Opinions?