Author Topic: Brigade combinations? (Read 9047 times)

David Wasilewski · « **Reply #15 on:** September 03, 2011, 04:23:48 PM »

There is a rule which states you should (must) maximise your frontage i.e. every stand in the unit must try and make contact if they have the movement to make it. The way round this, if you wish to keep your infantry in column (which is better for assaulting the enemy) is to charge the enemy from exactly 18cm, 1mm up to 20 cm away.

If you charge from 18cm or less distance from the enemy your first infantry unit has to spread out into line, potentially blocking the remaining units from getting stuck in.

If you have 4 units in a brigade of columns assaulting an enemy line you will be able to keep the assault up for longer as you have more stands that can be removed as casualties and your enemy will not be able to direct quite as many attacks all onto the same unit, meaning you can spread the damage taken a little better.

I agree this is "gaming it" but its a well established tactic in our group. It annoys some of us so we are currently discussing using a house rule that states you no longer have to maximise contact when charging with infantry in a column.

Dave

(I forgot to add, infantry stands are 2 cm deep hence the 18cm, 1mm - the second stand behind the first stand that leads the column will not be able to contact the enemy line and so can stay in column. If it could contact then it would have to go into line)

Avatar of the Eldar · « **Reply #16 on:** September 03, 2011, 05:57:18 PM »

Dave,

I don't see this as "gaming it" - and I'm pretty intolerant of those sorts of shenanigans in WFB.

Brigade-of-columns seems like the reasonable way to go for all-HTH brigades for the reasons you gave. Why would it be more "right" to deploy them all in line? The fall back rules will only risk jacking up the regiments behind the first.

Now if the fall back rules allowed the front rank to filter through the supporting ranks, with a leadership role to avoid confusion in the ranks standing fast, that would mimic ancient army tactics.

On that note, how does that work in Warmaster Ancients? Because Roman Republic armies were known to deploy in lines according to class and seniority (hastati, principe, triarii) and when the first rank was used up, the next rank pushed on through into the fight. They weren't displaced.

Mixed order (Napoleonic ordre mixte) seems like it would be good for shooting/HTH brigades. i.e. Archer regiment deployed in line of three companies with spears in column on either end. Have the archers hang back when the spears charge in or let the archers come in last positioned to support but not take direct attacks. Or just hang back and shoot at other unengaged units.

Apololgies for being Mr. Smartypants with historical references and the conjecture when I've never played a game of WM.

How does it really work on the table top?

David Wasilewski · « **Reply #17 on:** September 03, 2011, 06:11:23 PM »

I agree that the line v column debate entirely depends on what you're trying to achieve. Columns better for attacking or for defence in depth. Lines maximise shooting power or if you're facing enemy cavalry in the open, it is a way of ensuring you don't lose more than 2 units. If you defend against cavalry in column (a kind of napoleonic divisional masse I suppose) you usually end up losing the lot i.e. it doesn't work. You will weaken the enemy and pull him right in to your half of the table though as he advances and advances... I find a second or third line small reserve unit 'fire brigade' of chariots or lurking knights units is handy. The mistake some novice warmaster players do is to throw all their cavalry out on the front line.

A good Warmaster anti cavalry tactic is to throw 2 sacrificial lines out front and about 20 cm behind and slightly on the flanks, facing inwards at an oblique put some more infantry so you can attack the front and sides (and maybe even the rears if you get close enough!) of the committed enemy cavalry that ahs just smashed your front line and followed up into the bear trap. Of course it doesn't work if he rolls very high on his post combat 3d6 movement exploitation roll.

I have a huge Adler Napoleonic (large 6mm) collection and so am very familiar with the code you're using!

Dave

Cobalt · « **Reply #18 on:** September 06, 2011, 07:17:42 AM »

I understand what you mean by "gaming". Because of the rules, you can pull this when your soldiers are exactly at 18 cm from the enemy. Why shouldn't you be able to do the same at 16, 14 , 2 cm? I would have a houserule alowing this, certainly.

(something like a unit charging with initiative must maximize frontage but a unit charging unpon order can maintain formation)

As for the archers in front, (or gobbos), I sure wish they could let the tough guys charge and stay behind by initiative.

Dave · « **Reply #19 on:** September 06, 2011, 01:47:41 PM »

OK, so I get what Dave is saying. But how does this tie into what Lex is alluding to? If I make the charge with the HtH brigade in column where does the brigade of missile troops come? Order them around the flank and shoot away support?

Lex · « **Reply #20 on:** September 06, 2011, 09:53:32 PM »

Quote from: Dave on September 06, 2011, 01:47:41 PM

OK, so I get what Dave is saying. But how does this tie into what Lex is alluding to? If I make the charge with the HtH brigade in column where does the brigade of missile troops come? Order them around the flank and shoot away support?

Yup... IF you order a mixed brigade, peel ANY units you dont want involved off to " a side " and just get stuck in with the units you want to fight with!

DO remember however that IF you do this and want to further order the brigadepart peeled off, it will be the fist thing youneed to do afterwards !

Also, if you charge from column at 18cm, remember to make sure your MIDDLE unit can take the shooting and move that unit first !!!

captPiett · « **Reply #21 on:** September 06, 2011, 10:59:01 PM »

Assuming the archers in front with the HtH units in back, does that get around the requirement to see the enemy before charging then?Or is that not a concern because LOS is determined unit by unit in a brigade charge situation.

Dave · « **Reply #22 on:** September 07, 2011, 03:50:53 AM »

If only one unit has LoS and chooses to charge it would be considered to happen before the other moves, thus they would be able to charge or move of their own accord. But if the first unit didn't charge everything would be considered to happen at the same time so the others wouldn't be able to charge. That's how I interpret it anyway.

Lex · « **Reply #23 on:** September 07, 2011, 08:10:28 AM »

OK... nastyness

If a brigae of units gets an order then you move EACH UNIT ON ITS OWN. and the starting position/condition of every singular unit in the brigade at the moment it STARTS it move will determin what THAT unit will be able to do.

Remember there is NO CHARGE order in Warmaster !!

so if we have. eg. a brigade headed by archers in line, followed by 3 HtH units in column next to each other, and they receive a succesfull order then the archers move of to the side, this allows all 3 units a view of opponent then you pick A unit to move next, and it moves, makes contact and "maximises frontage" this COULD block LOS for more charging......

In that case, remember that ALL the units that NOT make contact with enemy MUST remain in contact with each other !!!! (but not in same formatio)

I will put the following in caps, as it is a major important issue

FOR SPEEDING UP PLAY WE OFTEN MOVE MULTIPLE UNITS AT TE SAME TIME; THIS IS NOT "WRONG"
(as long as all the rules about max moving distances etc are played)
BUT REMEMBER THAT THE RULES MECHANISM WORKS WITH INDIVIDUAL STANDS MOVING!
and describes various condictions where there will be a significant difference in gameplay if this is ignored.

Dave · « **Reply #24 on:** September 07, 2011, 01:48:24 PM »

So we've been playing it wrong the whole time.

This will make for a few less orders being issued.

Lex · « **Reply #25 on:** September 07, 2011, 02:38:00 PM »

well that is why we are here for !

captPiett · « **Reply #26 on:** September 07, 2011, 04:56:18 PM »

Quote from: Lex on September 07, 2011, 08:10:28 AM

OK... nastyness

Was that being nasty? I didn't take it that way

Thanks for the clarification Lex

Lex · « **Reply #27 on:** September 07, 2011, 05:23:26 PM »

nastyness was in reference to the fact that this is a VERY common oversight for a lot of players...... (not just fresh recruits!)

wmchaos2000 · « **Reply #28 on:** September 27, 2011, 03:59:07 PM »

In fact, the nastyness was thougher than that.
As a seasoned player, that plays the way Lex described it, I didnt realise the mistakes (in relation to he rules) in the first part of the discussion, until I read Lex:s post.

Shame on me. Thanks Lex.

Avatar of the Eldar · « **Reply #29 on:** September 27, 2011, 09:50:23 PM »

Okay, let me test my understanding of what Lex posted.

Given his example of brigade in line, the archers break out of the brigade to the side allowing the next regiment of hth to advance into combat where it must maximize frontage?

Question:

Can that first regiment stay in column allowing the regiments behind it to joint the attack in columns abreast and each 3 stands deep?

In other words, the first regiment does not need to "maximize" by spreading its stands/companies out into line, does it?