charge and pursuit

[Bel]

A halberdiers unit brigaded to knights unit (red one) attack to a brigade of two halberdiers units (A and B blues), one of them supporting the other. (see scheme)

The charge shown above is impossible for knights bkz the charge with corner-to-corner contact only is not allowed.
If supposing the charge was legal (the first picture must be a bit different), then the pursuit by A-blue unit is legal too - A-unit may pursuit red halberdiers (but not knights formally) and may move into accidental contact with knights (in this case I think pursuit bonuses will apply against knights too bkz they flee from the same engagement - LRB, p.48, top of right column).

[jchaos79]

Ok, thanks bel,

I did not take photos but I try to reconstruct mentally the turn secuence and found out what we did worng

[jchaos79]

Ok, I tried to simplify in the las example to explain me easier and I ask for a forbiden situation. The real situation was the scheme below.

Blue wins and pursuit. We resolve the pursuit as multiple combat,

Now all clear, thanks bel,

[Bel]

I find this situation quite funny bkz here cavalry unit may be pursued by infantry (actually) and this looks absolutely  legal.

[Lex]

In those cases where troops can NOT be pursued by other troops, but they still end up in accidental contact (like the example) their pursueing troops COULD attack the contact nor-pursuable unit, but they will NOT get any of the pursuit bonus !

In the above example the Red cavalry unit is linking this seperate combats and you would fight them as one engagement

[Bel]

so u contend 'nor-pursuability'  has a total priority? (I was confused a bit with a situation below and rules text)

Pursuers and unengaged enemy
When moving pursuers it is possible for stands to come into contact with unengaged enemy units. It is also possible for pursuers to come into contact with other enemy units retreating from the same combat, but which the pursuers were not touching in the previous round. In some cases this may be unavoidable – in others it will depend on the order in which pursuers are moved and how the player chooses to position pursuing stands. Any units contacted in this way are automatically drawn into the combat in the following round.
Pursuit bonuses only apply against retreating units if they fought in the same combat engagement as the pursuer. It does not matter whether a pursuer actually fought the retreating unit in the previous combat round – only that the unit retreated from the same engagement. No pursuit or charge bonuses apply against newly engaged units.

[wmchaos2000]

Guys, there is no discussion about this case. Lex is right.

Alright.
So, why is it ok to charge corner to corner (second and third stand) but not when pursuing? To me this is very odd.

[Getlord]

Because in one situation (charge) you are obliged to form a line whenever possible and in the second case you can and must in fact to envelope wherever possible (but you don't have to maximize frontage as explained earlier).

Obligation to forming a line during a charge (if enough movement) is often omitted by Warmaster players (not only beginners)

[Lex]

Alright.
So, why is it ok to charge corner to corner (second and third stand) but not when pursuing? To me this is very odd.

This was discussed with Rick WAYYYYYYYY back; the mechanism as it stands at the moment reflects the difference between the "ordered" charge, where troops would come in line-abreast for maximum impact (hence also the obligation to maximize frontage where and when possible). Of course in real life those guys fighting "corner-2-corner" would be in on the side of the unit, but for the rules this is simulated by them being allowd to fight, even when they made "no" real contact. The additional effect from the applied rule is that a victorious unit that wipes out its enemy has a 180 degreed LOS to its front to establish an ADVANCE move.

On the other hand there is the far more messy pursuit, when the enemy starts to fall back, troops will rush forward to maintain contact, and second or third liners will stream around those already engaged which is represented by the pursuit rules in allowing the winner to get more people into the fray (lapping around), and diminishing the fighting effectivness of the retreating unit that way. Note also that this does create a certain vulnerability for the pursuing unit !!  which will need to pull out and reform, or be hit in flanks o rear in next turns combat.

So although it may not always be intuitive, there is an underlying principle, which I hope you now understand

[wmchaos2000]

Aha! I see now.
Thank you for the explanation of the background, Lex.
Goes for you to, Getlord.
 

[mspaetauf]

HI!

Hmm well i did not read it all, but i have to kind of disagree!

According to the "rules-update-pdf" by GW, corner-to-corner contact is only prohibited, if it is the only type of contact a pursuing unit can establish. So basically the rules are the same as they are for moving chargers.

So corner-to-corner is ok if at least one base of the unit has front-edge contact.

See also pdf, page 12.

regards,

[Lex]

Hmm well i did not read it all, but i have to kind of disagree!

According to the "rules-update-pdf" by GW, corner-to-corner contact is only prohibited, if it is the only type of contact a pursuing unit can establish. So basically the rules are the same as they are for moving chargers.

Dont you mean that C2C is only NOT prohibited when it is the ONLY kind of contact a stand can make after forward puruit is made and non-forward stands are moved.....

and no, the rules are definitly NOT the same as for moving chargers..... 

- first stand of chargers MUST line up center-2-center; in pursuit the move is direct forward for ALL units that so make front edge contact
- extra stands of chargers MUST form up on the frontage of the first stand, and where possible (read, when they have enough distance) expand frontage to additional units; in pursuit stands that dont have direct forward target must move shortest distance in contact with THEIR front edge to any edge of retreating stands, with no obligation to maximize frontage
- pursuing stands that did NOT move direct forward, and that can NOT move into front edge contact, but CAN move into C2C are then allowed to do so ...

[jchaos79]

Hi,

yesterday we have a high elves vs chaos conflict, and we have a situation that I would like to ask you if we resolve it well.

Elf spear 1 and eagles (figure 1) just eliminate a marauder unit and they are allow to advance. That is a new charge. Both of them can see the chaos warriors and both of them can not flank them because they are over the 45º lateral sector.

I suppose they can charge corner to corner (figure 2). Is it right?

Yesterday when we resolve the charge I rememeber the following quote from Bel and makes me feel that we were making something wrong.

The charge shown above is impossible for knights bkz the charge with corner-to-corner contact only is not allowed.

Thanks in advance

[Guthwine]

The corner to corner charge is wrong, but either the eagles or elf spear 1 can flank them even if they are not in the 45° because the chaos warriors front is fully covered.

[jchaos79]

Thanks Guthwine,

I understood the reason, and now it is completly clear the corner to corner situations for me.

regards