Warmaster One Dayer. Warhammer World 17 Nov 2012.

[pw]

Here's a summary of the rules so far:

FORCES

This is a multi-player battle, involving two Armies each made up of three independent ‘Forces’. Each Force is 2500 points and selected using the min/max rules for 2000 point armies.

The Good Army (High Elves and Empire) are the defenders. The Evil Army (Chaos and Dark Elves) are the Attackers.

The following rules relate to the use of the combined Army:

1)   Each Force functions independently with units ordered only by characters from the same Force and magic spells/items effecting only friendly units from the same Force as the magic user. The only exception to this is that units from one Force may support units from another force during combats (for clarity: units from two forces may not brigade).
2)   The Army has a combined break point (add all the units in the three forces and divide by two, rounding up as normal). In other words, an individual Force will never break from the battle, it’s all or nothing.
3)   Killing the general of a single Force will not result in that Force withdrawing. It is necessary to kill the two generals from the same Army to force the Army to withdraw (at this point the entire Army will withdraw from the battle).

THE BATTLEFIELD

The game is played lengthways on a 12 x 4 table. Terrain should be set up in a mutually agreeable manner.

SET UP

Defender deployment

The defending army deploys first. The army is set up in three deployment zones:

D1: Vanguard
D2: Main
D3: Rearguard

Units of the same force may be brigaded should be in "marching" order with no more then 2 units abreast. No more than 2/3rds of the units (not points) in any one force may deploy in a single deployment zone. '

Outriders: Both the vanguard and the rear may employ "outriders". These should be single units (anything other than Machine and Monster) which move parallel to the main army-column and in ANY GIVEN TURN may make on full move "forward", unless they spot an enemy in LOS and within 20cm or see other outriders in LOS fall back on the main army. IN either case they will make an initiative move DIRECTLY towards the central axis of the table (where they expect the main army.

Baggage train: The defending army deploys ten baggage train wagons. Five with the Main and five with the Rearguard. During the command phase Wagons may move 20cm directly towards the Defender’s exit table edge (they do not need to be given orders to do this). Alternatively they can be given individual orders (a miximum of two per turn). Wagons are treated as chariots for the purposes of terrain, they cannot be brigaded, and cannot be driven back by missile fire.


Attacker deployment

Attackers/ambushers divide their army in brigades and may start the game with 2 brigades AND their general on the table edge OR deployed in woods/built up terrain within 20 cm of a table edge. For the purpose of deployment the table should be divided into 4' sections. Section 0 being the edge where the ambushed army will try and leave the table. An attacker can opt to use any 2 adjacent zones for his original deployment and to bring on his reserves. Reserves need to be ordered onto the table, which can be done by any character already deployed (taking in applicable penalties) or by attaching a not-already deployed character with the brigade, in which case they character is placed on the desired entry point and the brigade can be brought on with one successful order.

Starting the game:


GAME LENGTH




VICTORY CONDITIONS

Victory Points are awarded normally for units reduced to a single stand or destroyed, as described on page 63 of the Warmaster rulebook. The army with the highest Victory Points total at the end of the game is the winner.

Bonus Victory Points

Escape: The defenders gain additional Victory Points for each unit of two or more stands that exits the table (Units of one stand or flying units do not count).

•   Vanguard units moved of edge #0 count as HALF their value towards their armies VP.
•   Main units moved of edge #0 count as FULL value towards their armies VPs
•   Rearguard units moved of edge #0 count as double their value.

Baggage Train: Wagons are captured by inflicting one hit on the wagon (which has no armour and which doesn't fight back). Units engaged with enemy troops cannot attack wagons. Once a wagon is captured, remove the model from the table. At the end of the game roll D6 for each wagon plundered:

1 = 0
2-3 = 100
4-5 = 200
6 = 300


Generals: generals killed count for double victory points but their deaths do not force an army to withdraw unless all three are killed (at which point the whole army withdraws. Generals may not voluntarily leave the table until all units in their army have left the table.

[pw]

All of this is up for discussion (I've tinkered a little using existing scenarios to fill in some gaps). To summarise the undecided sections (and bits I'm unsure of):

1) Game length?
2) Which side shall we have as attacker/defender? Perhaps Lex would like to pick?
3) Outriders - I'm not sure if this doesn't add unnecessary complication but I like the idea and it seems necessary to protect the flanks from instant attack. It might be easier to say: Up to six units may be set up as outriders (two per deployment zone. They should be set up more than 20 cms from the central columns. Enemy troops may not be deployed within 30cms of these outriders.
4) Who goes first? Lex's outrider rules make it pretty clear that the defender will go first (which is necessary I think). Perhaps the attacker should get a chance to 'steal the initiative' on a D6 roll of 6,otherwise it's defender first.?
5) Once 2 is decided we might want a little fluff and a name for the battle... Anyone feeling creative?

I'll keep amending my word doc version of this and will share it with anyone who wants to see it (and aim to finalize it by Thursday night).

EDIT: Just had confirmation that the Warseer player can't make it. The TWF guys are being suspiciously silent, so it looks like it'll be 5 or six of us playing this scenario.

[Lex]

In terms of generals - don't forget that there will be three per side. My concern is to avoid having any one player's army withdraw while the others play on (this is most likely to concern the defending side I think whose generals are likely to be rather more vulnerable than those in a standard game.

That is why I suggested using an Army Banner (or Banners) stand in the Main (D2) area that works like the "general down" end of game objective

And another question:
Which of our two sides looks best suited to each role?

Chaos (2) + Dark Elves
High Elves (2) + Empire

I would probably go with the HE and Empire being the defenders......

Chaos and DE "warbands" comming on stage during the game ready to "loot" will have a proper feel to it (if you do that, remember that when defining brigades all the rules about brigading stand !!   (Note to self: need to adjust the idea when faced with attacking skaven !!

[pw]

I think the feel is right (Chaos as attacker).

I wonder if we need to consider a way of keeping high command cavalry on the table past turn one (it'd take 3 orders to get off). Perhaps (a) allow a small force of attackers to set up on the exit board edge, (b) simply say that no-one can leave on turn one?

This said, if all the cavalry from one army pony off into the distance the remainder will be easy pickings so perhaps it's not needed.

Can you say more about your flag idea? Currently I'd say that killing two generals would break an army (the whole army), it might be easier than working in further rules.

Edit: I've added in the rules for the ways the many armies interact into the main rules post.

[Lex]

Remember that a LOT of Cav will / should be employed as outriders too !!  and those are supposed to fall back on the main army when spotting enemies.....

Army banner(s). Just create a small stand (coin) that signifies the "core" of the army. You could use a tent with a table and a flag, or simply some banners stuck in the ground etc. This stand is the "focal" point of the defenders, similar to a bagage token, but with the MAIN instead of the rear, and ALWAYS attached to a unit.

Give you "flagguard"an appropriate bonus.....

 And "losing the flag" end the game like when a general is killed.

Easy peasy

[pw]

ALWAYS attached to a unit

That does sound rather easy to kill, not attaching the general to units is the tactic that I usually employ in order to keep them alive. Is the assumption that both sides would have such a thing?

[forbes]

Lots of thinking gone on today!!

I think the Army banner idea is unnecessary, and like Paul think that if it has to be attached to a unit it will be too easy to kill.

I like the idea that the loss of the 2nd general causes the whole allied army to flee.

I think 12x4 should be fine size wise - but having some extra space at the ends for casualties, books etc would be good.

I like the no more than 2/3 of a force in each of the defender zones.

Happy for Lex to choose which armies go where. I think it is best we decide this ahead of time to speed things up on the day.

I do like the idea of the convoy style scenario - but I'm not sure about the points, as they seem to favour the defender a lot.
The attacker gets VP for killed enemies and for the baggage. Baggage will only had 150 to 300 pts
The defender gets VP for killed enemies and for escaped units. Escaped units could add lots of points in this size of game. 3 knights off table, would be more than the baggage can give.

Other thoughts on this?? Perhaps the Defender only gets half-points for killing enemy units? Does the defender have any penalty for loosing the baggage, otherwise its probably worth sacrificing it just to get troops off the table. Maybe the baggage is the only bonus points part with each wagon worth 100pts but only when its moved off table (any edge for the attackers, edge 0 for the defenders?)

[markyparky]

Played similar type of game deployed in the middle of a table defending, by turn 2 I was losing horribly as the attacker could reach me in his first turn. I would like to see no combat on turn 1 but feel to act turn 2onwards

[pw]

I must admit that I don't feel qualified to comment on the VP distribution as almost (if not all) my games have been the standard battle. But, I agree that it looks rather 'asymmetrical' (in terms of winning I'd probably rather be the defender in this). I guess the key to these VPs is how difficult it is for the defender to escape and it's this I'm not sure about.

Looking at the distances concerned it is quite hard for the defender to get units off from D3 and D2.
D3 = move of 270cm
D2 = move of 180cm
D1 = move of 90cm

So, I'd expect that D3 will struggle to get to the end and D2 might be a bit of a stretch (9 moves for infantry). D1 seems pretty easy for cav + command 10 + 'magic items of command improvement'. As such I'd guess that the defender could realistically bag around 1250 VPs by the end of the game while the Attacker gets about 300.

Would changing the rules for baggage help? How about:

Each baggage train counter captured gives the attacker 100 points (for a max of 1000). AND not removing stands that claim them?

Or, we could borrow the  VP table from 'Wagon over Axe Bite Pass' (p. 85 main rulebook):

At the end of the game roll D6 for each wagon plundered:

1 = 0
2-3 = 100
4-5 = 200
6 = 300

Wagons captured by inflicting one hit on the wagon (which has no armour and which doesn't fight back). Units engaged with enemy troops cannon attack wagons.

Max VPs would be 3000, average (if all captured) would be about 1500.

[pw]

Played similar type of game deployed in the middle of a table defending, by turn 2 I was losing horribly as the attacker could reach me in his first turn. I would like to see no combat on turn 1 but feel to act turn 2onwards

This comment makes the VPs seem more reasonable but it also suggests that the best tactic would simply be for the defender to run as fast as possible.

But, Lex's scenario does reduce the number of troops available to the attacker, would this (+ outriders) help enough?

[David Wasilewski]

Markyparky is right. He is referring to the one and only "awful" game of Warmaster anyone in our group has ever had. The dwarfs set up in a laager in the middle of the table. The chaos came on from the sides.

In turn 1 the chaos dragon ogres and knights did a double move and had absolutly SMASHED one side of the dwarven forces and the game was virtually won before the dwarves could even move.......

It was a bit lucky but not insanely lucky.....

My suggestion is that the forces should start off at least 61 cm apart on deployment? (and I'm a Chaos player with ultra heavy cavalry so am very happy to be shouted down on this one!)

Dave

[pw]

Sadly that wouldn't be possible (or it'd be difficult), with a table 120 cm wide and units in the middle taking 8cm of the space + the units starting on the back line will likely have their frontage between 2 and 6 cm in we'd be hard pushed to get the distance sorted. Add in the outriders who as single units are likely to be destroyed and Advance moves make it even easier to get to the centre.

[Lex]

Horsies dont go into terrain, so they set-up on the edge of the board. Which means that (unless VERY unlucky) the Defender WILL spot the ambush and have first turn !!

I concur that the VP on the bagage would profit from the change to the suggested scenario. I probably still rule that any unit claiming "loot" would loose a stand, and dont actualy go luggin the luggage over the table to get it off.   

We did play similar scenarios before, in the majority of games the defender ends up spotting the ambush and gettin first turn, and (most) outriders manage to get back or end up brigading.

When sticking to a "historical" setup for Van, Main, Rear the majority of your van will be cavalry/chariots and light infantry, the main would mainly be (heavy) infantry and the rear is a goodly mix. And yes, where is DOES make sense to triplemove all your (expensive) cav of, it will only be worth half points !!  and the defender will loose valuable assets for Winning the game. Also, with less units to protect them, your general(s) will become progressivly more vulnerable... 

The proof is in the eating of Da Puddin........

[David Wasilewski]

Righty ho - better get sharpening and greasing up those chaos knight horns and lances then boys

Thats a challenge to the van of the defenders! Wonder if we could wipe them out completely inside two turns!
(It'll all go horribly wrong now and the cavalry will refuse to move and then be mown down like chaff)

Dave

[pw]

Hi All, I've updated the summary above once again. I hope it reflects what people are saying!

Which do you prefer of the Outrider rules?

Both the vanguard and the rear may employ "outriders". These should be single units (anything other than Machine and Monster) which move parallel to the main army-column and in ANY GIVEN TURN may make on full move "forward", unless they spot an enemy in LOS and within 20cm or see other outriders in LOS fall back on the main army. IN either case they will make an initiative move DIRECTLY towards the central axis of the table (where they expect the main army.

or

Up to six units may be set up as outriders (two per deployment zone. They should be set up more than 20 cms from the central columns. Enemy troops may not be deployed within 30cms of these outriders. Before the first turn these units may make a single scout move (use the Fallback rules). In subsequent turns the outrider units are given orders normally in the command phase.

As this version removes the 'Who goes first' mechanism it might be necessary to say: Defender goes first unless the Attacker can roll a 6 on a D6 to steal the initiative.



Oh, and good news, the other other Paul has confirmed (he can stay until 5). I'd be grateful if one of the Good Guys would select an army list and post it here? (and we'll need to take you up on the kind offer of providing the models too).