Where to place the charging stands ?

[Claus]

Hello ladies, hello gentlemen.

We had a nice game last friday 2.500 pts Undead vers 2.500 pts High Elfs) and encountered following situation where we were not sure how to handle correct.

There are actually 2 options for the solution and I wonder which one is the right one according to the rules.



Actually in our discussion I´m the one voting for option 1) as the rule says to maximize contact and when charging the High Elf Speerman charges both units of Undead Bowmen. (as per the rule). During charge you never have accidental contact.

What´s your opinion ?

[Lex]

Option one, mandatory extension into contact will all available enemies !!

[Getlord]

Contact with other enemy
In some cases you may find that charging stands come
into contact with other enemy units positioned
alongside the first. These other units also count as
having been ‘charged’ and are drawn into the combat
engagement. Once the closest charger has moved, the
obligation for remaining chargers to maximise their
front edge contact extends to adjacent enemy units
and tends to result in more units being drawn into
the engagement.

Which means (imho): option 1

[jchaos79]

I understand that the third stand of charging elves must expand the battle line because bowmen 1 count as charged as well, so elves do not have chance of having support.

is it right

[Claus]

@jchaos

The only option where the High Elves could get support would be ....

1) Using a 2nd unit providing support for them.

2) Movement of the stand (20cm) is not sufficient to establish the maximized contact allowing to put the stand as a support stand.

Regards
Claus

[Getlord]

So let's discuss further the support issue.
Is it really option 2 fully true?
2) Movement of the stand (20cm) is not sufficient to establish the maximized contact allowing to put the stand as a support stand.
or should it rather look like:
2) Movement of the stand (20cm) is not sufficient to establish the contact along the appropriate enemy unit edge (the same as previous stands) allowing to put the stand as a support stand.

In simple situation of charging only one unit the question is:
Should we maximize the contact wherever possible even if it is in favour only for attacker? If so, then there is simple obligation to move for example corner to corner to for the second stand in the situation where moving to "the other side" (resulting in full "front to front") is impossible due to insuffcient move. Of course even corner to corner can be done only if there is enough movement for full move ending in froming the straight flush line.


In our situation from this thread everything is more complicated. First of all we have to make one basic assumption for the whole discussion. And it is not described in the rules. The assumption is that we are treating all three front stands from two different units as stands from one unit (for a moment only). If we made such an assumption all written before is true.

Why it is so good to assume so? Becuase as per the rules for placing additional stands, unit cannot be charged side to side. In fact we have to assume that the Undead bowmen unit 1 was charged to its front otherwise placing remaining charging stands to the front of remaining stands of the unit charged would be against the rules. Of course everybody feels that treating this "accidental charge" on Unit 1 (side to side) as charge to the real side is a nonsens.

It is far better to think about "irregular enemy front line" and apply well described rules for charging enemy unit in irregular formation (chapter "Charges and irregular formations" and diagram 38.1 in living rulebook).

Are you following me or I made it too blurry? :-)

Then let's imagine red unit standing more to the right but still "in the front zone" (in the next excel column).
It goes like this:
1. First stand is charging as shown.
2a. Then the second is charging to the left (if enough movement) maximizing the contact for this combact engagement and forming proper battle line with green unit. (But remember that we are doing it because we have valid previous assumption!)
2b. If not enough movement we are checking corner to corner to blue unit (so solution 2) - to maximize the contact within full charge move.
2c. If still not enough movement we can think about placing this stand as a support
2d. or only touching the first one (if really far away)
2e. or finally the charge is not allowed at all if the consistency of the unit cannot be mainatined after the first stand charge due to insufficient movement of the second (or third) stand.

This is my opinion how it all should be done if it comes to real detailed discussion.

[Guthwine]

Just to clarify, the spearmen were all in range to attack and were ordered to attack blue.

But the thing is it isnt an irregular formation, it are 2 units in formation that arent aligned, so the irregular formations rule doesnt really apply here.  But your first post, Getlords makes it clear.

But in my defense, we did play it right because I got 3 S&S hits and killed off stand 1 after moving the chargers.



So in the end it was a legal move thanks to your shooting.

The other question is, would the 2 stands count as being flanked during this charge? (important especially for counting support) RAW, I think would suggest yes, because there is no accidental contact during a charge.

[Getlord]

Being flanked is not the question because:

Enemy facing own side or rear
This penalty applies to individual stands which have
an enemy stand’s front edge or front corner touching
their own side edge, rear edge or rear corner. Note
that only enemy front edges and corners impose this
penalty. Opposing stands touching side to side don’t
impose a mutual penalty for example.

[Lex]

But in my defense, we did play it right because I got 3 S&S hits and killed off stand 1 after moving the chargers.

Your S&S take out the FIRST stand moved !! The do (specifically) NOT allow you to remove a stand AFTER the move has been done. So your positioning ends up as per Sollution 1)

[Guthwine]

Ah thx, Getlord.

But in my defense, we did play it right because I got 3 S&S hits and killed off stand 1 after moving the chargers.

Your S&S take out the FIRST stand moved !! The do (specifically) NOT allow you to remove a stand AFTER the move has been done. So your positioning ends up as per Sollution 1)

This is incorrect. Casualties are removed after the charging unit has finished its moved. And as far as I know there is no obligation to take a particular stand. Its the attackers choice I think, so Option 2 should be possible.

[Getlord]

Guthwine,

1. You're right concerning the moment of working out S&S and removing casualties.
2. But the picture you put above is wrong in my opinion. You cannot put initially those three charging stands in the "L" formation:

Once the closest charger has moved, the
obligation for remaining chargers to maximise their
front edge contact extends to adjacent enemy units
and tends to result in more units being drawn into
the engagement.

[Guthwine]

Yes you are right, I placed the last stand in the wrong way and should have maximized. After reading the paragraph you posted its quite clear to me now.

But S&S made the situation legal again.

[Getlord]

Sorry to be picky, but I doubt it was legal 

Before shooting you should have had your three charging stands put in the position touching one blue stand (Bowmen 2) and two stands from other enemy unit (Bowmen 1) forming - more or less - one battle line with maximized front edge contact. Everything assuming that the movement of the third stand allowed to be placed on the far left side of the combat.

So placing the third stand in the corner to corner contact on the right hand side was not allowed. Placing one behind the other (in supporting position) was also not allowed because in both cases you would not have maximised the front edge contact of remaining charging stands.

Then S&S, and then removing stands. In whatever scenario Solution 2 is not expected result (still assuming enough movement).

Or I misunderstood something?

[Guthwine]

Ok, I think we are talking about the same thing.

Yes, placing the third stand was done in the wrong way, but since this stand died in S&S it made no difference.

If I had formed the line  keeping corner to corner, I still would have taken this stand as a casualty and so the end result would have been the same. Ergo => An illegal placement became a legal situation because the stand in question was killed.

[Getlord]

All that was easy . After digesting what we all wrote here we should consider red elves charging green bowmen 1 from the side and obviously touching with its side to the front of blue bowmen 2.

How to position remaining two stands according to the rules is really the key question here