Pursuit question

[pw]

Hi, A quick question that came up last night:

I'll have to do this with a diagram!

.....aaa
bbbccc
eeehhh

Unit aaa is attacking unit ccc. It is not in contact with unit bbb (but very nearly, say 1mm)

after the combat two bases from ccc are destroyed. Unit c flees just 1 cm and hhh makes way for the remaining base to leave this (note that the unit c is not in line with the back of unit h but in between its front and back):


....aaa
bbb
eee..hh
.....ch

The question is what does unit aaa do? One base can fit into the gap between eee and hhh and will be in contact with the remaing base from unit c as well as bases from bbb and eee. The remaining attacking bases can't get in the gap so the crash into unit hhh.

Getting this:

bbb..aa
eeeahh
.....ch

As a result unit aaa gets horribly entangled, flanked and rather out-supported and is likely to lose the next round of combat.

Is this right?

[Guthwine]

I hope I understood the situation but there are 2 possibilities:

graphics always help!


Either C is pushed without H having to make way or C is pushed into H in which case H has to make way, either like H1 or H2 (in the graphic C would have lost by 2). If you make way with a unit you have to keep formation.

[Lex]

Hi, A quick question that came up last night:

I'll have to do this with a diagram!

.....aaa
bbbccc
eeehhh

Unit aaa is attacking unit ccc. It is not in contact with unit bbb (but very nearly, say 1mm)

Assuming that all units involved are infantry then by the rules unit A is in almost all cases also in contact with unit B
And if A was a unit of cavalry then the normal offset would make the difference 5mm.

So explain what cause the 1 mm difference ??

after the combat two bases from ccc are destroyed. Unit c flees just 1 cm and hhh makes way for the remaining base to leave this (note that the unit c is not in line with the back of unit h but in between its front and back):

....aaa
bbb
eee..hh
.....ch

If you opt to make way check this (page 56 of LRB):

When moving aside, all stands in the path of the
friendly unit are moved and all other stands remain
stationary. The player rearranges the stands that move
around the stands that remain stationary. If the entire
unit lies within the path of the friendly unit then all
stands must be moved, in this case the player begins
with the stand that must move the shortest distance to
get out of the path of its friends. This stand is moved
the shortest distance out of the path of its friends
without changing its orientation. The remaining
stands are then rearranged into formation around the
first. Note that unit’s that are moving aside can change
their formation as they do so. See diagram 57.1.

The question is what does unit aaa do? One base can fit into the gap between eee and hhh and will be in contact with the remaing base from unit c as well as bases from bbb and eee. The remaining attacking bases can't get in the gap so the crash into unit hhh.

Getting this:

bbb..aa
eeeahh
.....ch

As a result unit aaa gets horribly entangled, flanked and rather out-supported and is likely to lose the next round of combat.
Is this right?

IMO your example is not correct as B had to be involved in combat too, but for the sake of argument:

- your opponent stripped outside stands of unit C, leaving the leftmost and moving it back 1 cm
- in order to do so he had to "make way" with unit H, which he did by moving the LEFTMOST stand of unit H on the righthand side of the unit (see quote above)
- he then rolls confusion for unit C (pushing back) and unit H (making way)

AFTER this has been done you follow pursuit rules (note that pursuit HAS changed with the published errata on the GW site !!

- start with moving stand directly forward that would end up in frontal edge contact (iow. YOU rightmost stand). Note that this would NOT contact B IF there was not earlier contact, as the move is made directly forward.
- your middle stand can NOT move directly forward, as that would mean you only make corner2corner contact, but would actualy WRAP to make frontal contact with C, placed so it wont make contact with H (unless of course you WANT to make the incidental contact, accept the extra (flanked) attacks on A, because that could allow you to subsequently fight on against H
- your leftmost stand can NOT make any front edge contact and is allowed to be stacked in support of either of your previously moved stands.

In itself this is not TO messy, a 2-or-3 cm move would be more tricky.

[pw]

@Guthwine: your diagrams put mine to shame! The scenario was the second one but the driveback was actually 3cm (your diagrams have forced my memory to work!).We obviously did the make way slightly incorrectly but it was close to the H2 position. Assuming this is the case then to contact the remaining C stand the attacker would have to go past the H2 unit with one unit and be find itself flush with the units on the left of the diagram as my brigades were all in base to base contact. (i.e in the second round there is no 1mm space).

@Lex: Everything was infantry. The 1mm difference was a deliberate choice not to contact another unit while maximising the number of attackers in combat (not defenders). Incidentally I was the brigade, my opponent the attacker and this muddled both of us in a most amicable manner!

EDIT: Lex I"ve just noticed your comments on the moves which for some reason didn't appear before (all I had was quotes from me!). Two factors make the whole thing a horrid mess: (1) the retreat was 3 cm (my mistake in the original post) and (2) the initial placement was 1mm away from the unit on the left which means that the pursuing stand either hits the stand in unit hhh first (by that 1mm) or it is forced to slide sideways by 1mm to fit into the gap left by the fleeing unit. If it has to move directly forwards then it can't make contact. I wonder if this would preclude pursuit (I assume you have to be able to fulfil the pursuit rules? The other odd thing is that the rest of the unit can't wrap round with the 3cm flee as the flank is covered by unit hhh (unless they're allowed to leave base contact with their other units which I doubt.


What I really need to do is (1) read the rules properly (this mess happened in what was our third game) and (2) find myself in the happy position of playing against one of you experienced players and watching this unfold on the tabletop.

As it is we came up with a solution that was, I still think, correct except for the fact that we allowed the slide-across move of the pursuing unit to enable it to slot into the gap. At the end of the day we were both confused but happy. Me less so as eventually I got crumped - mainly because I had no idea what flame cannons did and foolishly wandered too near! It rolled 6 hits (from 11 shots) and my Knights failed every save! Never again!

Thanks for the detailed comments, I'll probably drag some units out and try to replicate this on the table with the rules and this thread to hand.

[Guthwine]

The other odd thing is that the rest of the unit can't wrap round with the 3cm flee as the flank is covered by unit hhh (unless they're allowed to leave base contact with their other units which I doubt.

Yes you can come into contact while pursuing, but you will not get any bonus attacks if you allocate attacks to them.

I think that would be the correct way to handle your situation, with A comming into contact with unit H&C:

[pw]

That looks like a neat solution, we didn 't think about the attackers changing formation in that way.

[Lex]

I am still wondering how you manage the 1mm distance, because if YOUR units where in one brigade with a flush edge between B and C (which is the way it would normaly be set-up, unless you specifily want to weaken your line of defence, then his CHARGE move will ALWAYS put him in contact with both units. Also not that WHEN THE CHARGING STANDS (<--- on per stand basis !!) maximize contact this does mean maximizing contact WITH the defenders, not maximizing attackers    Depending on the actualy distance of the charge-move this often means that you will bite of more then you can chew and fight additional troops....

The diagram above depicts the correct situation as per the pursuit rules, no need for "gaps" to move through in this case, moving direct forward is the way to go, and the other stands just pile in behind. Assuming that C and B indeed always where 1 mm apart then you would end up with the following situation:

- leading stand of A fights towards its front allocating attacks on C (by the letter of the rule, you are now also fighting H, and could opt to attack there, but in that case you do loose ALL the pursuit-bonus !!)
- because the leading stand has side2side contact with H, it does NOT count as being flanked (and neither would H should you allocate attacks there
- middle stand of A counts support (assuming that if ANY A-stand dies, you would peel of the last one)
- note that you are now IN COMBAT with H, so your combat results should be divided by 2 units fought against to determine the retreatdistance, so IF A takes out C, you continue the fight as a combat between A and H

BTW... by all means keep asking these kind of questions, not only are they good (basic) material for all new players, but it keeps "the old stomp" on the matter as well....


as I was typing this while you posted....

IF you would want to pursue, then by the rules that be the only legal formation, other then having the two trailing stands ADJACENT to each other, instead of BEHIND

[pw]

Hi Lex,

I can explain that 1mm thing pretty easily now. Having read the rules last night the answer is obvious - it was a mistake. If we'd known how chargers were moved it would have been clear that the first base to move (the nearest to the nearest) is forced to contact centre-to-centre with the base it attackes and this would of course have brought it into contact with the units on its left and right.

Now where's the embarassed smiley when you need it?