Combat resoloution

[Dranask1]

My apologies gentlemen but I would like to use the picture's scenario below to ask a number of questions as I'm  pretty certain many  at our club still don't have a proper handle on combat when multiple units are involved on both sides.

A, B + C are undead

A + B have taken 1 wound each from a magic missile attack, as 'C' is in combat 'B' isn't driven back as 'C' blocks its path, not that is could be as it is also in combat and so 'B' can't make way for 'A' to be driven back either.

As 'C' + 'B' are in combat they can't be driven back and would not be confused, they are in combat, missile hits are the least of their problems.
'A' has its driven back path blocked by 'B' so were it not undead it becomes confused.




First Move.

The Boar Boys and Chariots have charged and have 5 attacks per stand a total of 30 between them, five of which could be used against unit B.

Whilst for the Undead, Unit C Skeletons have 2 attacks per stand reduced to one as they have been hit in the flank plus two attack from unit B, a total of 5.

The Undead would choose to aim all their attacks at the lower armoured chariots

Assume the undead achieve 4 wounds on the chariots.
Assume the Orcs achieve 2 wounds on Unit 'B'
Assume the Orcs achieve 15 wounds on Unit 'C'

Combat resolution is
Orcs achieve 17 wounds
Undead achieve 4 + 1 support
12 wounds in favour of the Orcs

Unit C is wiped out,
Unit B loses one stand 2 wounds in melee + one shooting.
Wolf chariots lose one stand and carry a wound.

This is the first round of the melee, so the orcs are permitted a 20cm move if the enemy is wiped. However the enemy unit 'B' stil exists so what happens now?

In which direction should unit 'B' move its 12cm?

I assume if Unit B had to move towards Unit 'A' then 'A' would move out of the way, unless A was in combat and unable to move then in that case B would be destroyed.

However I believe Unit 'B' would move to its table edge.

Must Chariots re engage unit B or may they choose to take on unit A and if so would it be a flank attack?
Can Boar Boys re engage unit B or choose to take on unit A?

In effect would it be possible for either:
the chariots to swing into unit 'A' whilst the Boar boys hit unit 'B',
or
indeed for the chariots to purse unit 'B' whilst the Boar boys move forwards to unit 'A'.
or must both orc units go for Unit 'B'

[Aldhick]

One quick terminology note to the first paragraphs - you "fall back" from combat. The move caused by shooting/magic is "drive back". Both have differents mechanics. It's good keeping the terminology right when trying to get the rules into your head :-)

[wmchaos2000]

Assume the undead achieve 4 wounds on the chariots.
Assume the Orcs achieve 2 wounds on Unit 'B'
Assume the Orcs achieve 15 wounds on Unit 'C'

You can never do more unsaved Hits to a unit then it has in total. (3x3=9, normally)
So 4 hits, 2 hits and 9 hits.

Combat resolution is
Orcs achieve 17 wounds
Undead achieve 4 + 1 support
12 wounds in favour of the Orcs

The calculation-theory is correct, but the numbers should be 11-5=6. (given one stand supports correct)
If the shooting attack from the spell carries over into combat, you have to check if it also counts towards combat result and in that case it should be: 12-5=7.

Unit C is wiped out,
Unit B loses one stand 2 wounds in melee + one shooting.
Wolf chariots lose one stand and carry a wound.

Also correct, if the magic-shooting attack is carried over into the following combat round, which also can be found in the spell description.

This is the first round of the melee, so the orcs are permitted a 20cm move if the enemy is wiped. However the enemy unit 'B' stil exists so what happens now?

Boar Boys were not fighting unit B, so they are free to Fall Back (3D6) or Advance (=new charge move up to 20cm to the closest viable enemy).

In which direction should unit 'B' move its 12cm?

A unit moves directly away from the units side where it has the most enemy stands in base-to-base.
If a draw in number of stands, the commander of the falling back unit decides.
So, in this case, it is touching only one unit, Wolf Chariots, and is doing so on a corner-to-corner, so it gets to decide.
The distance is not correct. It should move combat-result divided by how many units that fought on its side.
So 7/2=3.5, which rounds up to 4cm.

I assume if Unit B had to move towards Unit 'A' then 'A' would move out of the way, unless A was in combat and unable to move then in that case B would be destroyed.

Yes. However A can choose not to move at all and then B gets destroyed.

However I believe Unit 'B' would move to its table edge.

In this case, by choice, yes.

Must Chariots re engage unit B or may they choose to take on unit A and if so would it be a flank attack?
Can Boar Boys re engage unit B or choose to take on unit A?

B were not wiped, so Chariots can choose to Fall Back or Pursue B.
Boar Boys can Fall Back or Advance-Charge the nearest of the two remaining Undead units.

In effect would it be possible for either:
the chariots to swing into unit 'A' whilst the Boar boys hit unit 'B',
or
indeed for the chariots to purse unit 'B' whilst the Boar boys move forwards to unit 'A'.
or must both orc units go for Unit 'B'

Chariots must wipe B first, before doing any Advance.
Boar Boys can Advance against which one is closest, when it is their turn to move.

Remember that if you choose to move Chariots before Boys, the situation may not at all become the same as if you choose to move Boys before Chariots.
Line of sight may become blocked for advancing unit, enemys front may become blocked by the first unit that already moved, and so on. 

Probaly some of our fellow Warmasters here can find some faults above, but hopefully the mainpart of the answers are correct. 

[jchaos79]

Which direction should B move?

They move in the oppsite direction of the side in contact with more enemy stands. In your case, B is touching corner to corner for the front. So they should retreat going to the upper side of the picture.

How to pursuit.
Chariots could pusuit B. Put the units in contact in the same position. In this case one boar raider corner to corner. Then maximize frontal. If all the frontal of the retreating unit is fighting and ther are exceed of stands of the unit who is pursuing, then they can envelop, attacking the flank.

Boars have killed all his enemies they are out of the combat, they are not allow to pursuit, so they could make an advance. They could charge to the closest enemy unit that they can see in a radio of 20cm because they breakthrough. Notice they can only choose if they make an advance or not. Once they decide to make the advance, they must charge to the closest enemy unit in LOS, no chance to choose.

[Dranask1]

Thank you all of you for your help.

One quick terminology note to the first paragraphs - you "fall back" from combat. The move caused by shooting/magic is "drive back". Both have differents mechanics. It's good keeping the terminology right when trying to get the rules into your head :-)

Thanks I have amended the original post.

@wmchaos2000, thanks so much for your response it has made several points clear, it seems I had more wrong than right! - but I'm getting there.

The spell GOTCHA! hits are carried forwards into the first round of combat. They count as having been struck in combat, so I assume affect combat resolution.

@jchaos79 thanks for your input

Which direction should B move?

They move in the oppsite direction of the side in contact with more enemy stands. In your case, B is touching corner to corner for the front. So they should retreat going to the upper side of the picture.

How to pursuit.
Chariots could pusuit B. Put the units in contact in the same position. In this case one boar raider corner to corner. Then maximize frontal. If all the frontal of the retreating unit is fighting and there are exceed of stands of the unit who is pursuing, then they can envelop, attacking the flank.

This would mean they move through the current position of unit 'A', which will have to give way or see unit 'B' destroyed.

With one chariot on corner to corner contact with 'B' then where does the 2nd [remaining] chariot go?
1 - To the left against the frontage of unit 'B', or
2 - To the right maintaining its relative position to the first chariot and hit the flank of unit 'B'

Boars have killed all his enemies they are out of the combat, they are not allow to pursuit, so they could make an advance. They could charge to the closest enemy unit that they can see in a radio of 20cm because they breakthrough. Notice they can only choose if they make an advance or not. Once they decide to make the advance, they must charge to the closest enemy unit in LOS, no chance to choose.

The game really makes you think out your moves as it can be quite the game decider. 

[jchaos79]

It is simply:

- Stands in contact when pursuit goes in the exact same position. (the exception is corner to corner, in that case the base goes to the frontal of the enemy). 
- Then maximize frontal with the rest of your stands.
- If the frontal is full, they can go flank.

So the answer is 1) against the frontage. The fluff is units tend to pursuit and fight maximizing frontal. Only in case of pursuing and superiority could flank.

About the relative position and trayectories... well do not mess with it. When you have clear the three points above, then:

- At the end of the movement there must be continuity of the units. (all stands in contact) - that is obvious.

- Remember that units move this way: First move one stand, then the other, then the third. So if there is a complex situation, like multiple combat, enemies nearby, terrain, etc... you should be able to make a path to the final position (frontage). If this path is block then the stand could charge to a the close side (flank). If there is no possibility of contact the enemy, then the stands could be in any position. With infantry is typical support the stands of the same unit which are fighting the enemy.

- Remember that when pursuing, and maximizing frontage (expanding battleline) there could enter in contact with other enemy units. The bonus of pursing do not count agains this casual contact. In some situations, you could choose the position of the stands pursuing (always maximizing enemy frontal), so you could choose which enemy unit have casual contact or even negating casual contact.


About the other point, yes the game is decider in some aspect. But the tactical sense is your last word:
To advance or not advance... Once it is decide, is the little lead men which advance to the enemy, because the capitan of the unit is not in a helicopter which could see the whole battlefild like the player... this is the "smoke of battle".

[Dranask1]

Thank you Jchaos79

I wish I'd started playing Warmaster in 1999/2000 when I first saw it, but my son was less  interested in small models and WHFB and 40K was the way we went.

As a game system it is giving me more pleasure than many others, maybe because it was dropped by GW and has remained close to its original concept and not been changed by the drive for profits.

Unsurprisingly my other favourites are Black Powder, Hail Caesar and Blitzkrieg Commander 2

[forbes]

I've not read all of this in detail, so these points may have been addressed already.

For the undead I think you have the attacks wrong - it is 2 attacks per stand normally.
You have 4 stands in combat (3 from C, and 1 from B) = 8 attacks
1 stand of C is flanked, so looses 1 attack, down to 7 attacks.

You could only put a max of 1 attack against the boar boyz, but wisely choose to put them all against the weaker chariots.

Also in the combat results you mention the undead get 4 wounds + 1 support. But cavalry can neither support, or be supported.

[Dranask1]

Thank you, I think you will find the Undead units are not cavalry and therefore do get the support, maybe you misread, they were being attacked by cavalry.

My understanding is that all the stands in a unit are affected if it is flanked so that would make 6 attacks reduced to three for Unit 'C' and two attacks from Unit 'B'.

[jchaos79]

Forbes is right, the modifiers are per stand not per unit.

In example:
+1 when charging in open (is per stand)
-1 flanking (applies to the stands being flanked)

[Dranask1]

Forbes is right, the modifiers are per stand not per unit.

In example:
+1 when charging in open (is per stand)
-1 flanking (applies to the stands being flanked)

This has been a good learning thread  , As it wasn't picked up ealier I assumed I'd got at least that right.   

[forbes]

Thank you, I think you will find the Undead units are not cavalry and therefore do get the support, maybe you misread, they were being attacked by cavalry.

My understanding is that all the stands in a unit are affected if it is flanked so that would make 6 attacks reduced to three for Unit 'C' and two attacks from Unit 'B'.

It was from the photo that I thought the undead were cavalry.
They look to be short based, and facing  towards the bottom of the photo.

If this is not the case then they are wide based infantry and either facing to the left or right. ( which is s terrible formation) In that case all stands of C have been flanked by the wolves (black unit), and the boars have hit the front or rear.
In this  case 1 stand of B would fight with corner to corner,  but I'm not sure if it counts as flanked or not. If flanked then another stand of B can't support.

[Dranask1]

@ Forbes.

Apologies, I'd got it in my mind that they were infantry, but you are right they are cavalry, so you first comments stand. Even when I was chewing up his ranks I was thinking of the infantry beyond, no excuses though.

/eating humble pie.

Its a good job they were being attacked by cavalry or my whole synopsis would be wrong. 

[forbes]

No probs.

There are many steps to a WM combat - it can be quite hard to describe it on a forum.