WFB new specialist game?

[Darkson]

The complete overhaul of looks (and names) that Cybershadow mentions is exactly the plan. Forget your own conceptions of Warhammer races- it's all going out the window so that GW can stamp it as their IP.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Warhammer
Go to race, and check out the new names.

Aelf
Beastman
Daemon
Duardin
Grot
Human
Mortal
Mummy
Ogor
Orruk
Seraphon
Skaven
Skeleton
Sylvaneth
Troggoth
Vampire

[jchaos79]

It is wierd, now there is a complete reboot of old world, and at the same time Total war saga will launch a game in the old setting (As far as I know). Ironical

[Stormwind]

Geep's take on all this is 100% accurate, it's all very odd.  Tonnes of GW apologists in comments going "Why are you whining, this is what you wanted" in the most disingenuous way.

[andydorman]

So I've had an unpainted skaven army sat on my shelves for quite a while. I've been very close to flogging it - the system just seemed so awful compared to epic and warmaster. With this I'm actually tempted to keep it. I don't really know what that says?! It does seem like a reasonable beer and pretzel game, that said, they will have pissed a lot of people off with it. Basically,  if I want tactics and strategy I've got warmaster and epic - if I want something else I may well try this. It is truly appalling what they've done to the background though.

Maybe they've finally done the right thing and not pretended to be able to do balance or competition in any meaningful way?

[wmchaos2000]

Hopefully WFB is going in this direction:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=129642
So i´d say, topic is correct. 

[jchaos79]

Sigmarites for warmaster are made by magister millitum :

http://www.magistermilitum.com/era/fantasy.html#order=name&limit=36&p=1&dir=ASC&cat[]=62398

Angels in full metal plate

haha

[CyberShadow]

Interestingly, there are a few people who are enthusiastic about the new version. I have been talking with a few on Twitter. Largely, it seems that there was a group of people who were on the edge of WHFB, and were already 40K players I think, and who are now looking at the simpler rules and more relaxed attitude of the game and looking to graba few kits, since they can now buy anything that they want without having to worry if it is 'rules legal'.

This is certainly not for me, although I was never a WHFB player either, and I think that it will lose more players than it gains, but it seems that there is a target audience out there, however small or temporary they are. (And, these are people talking about getting into it.... Time will tell if they actually do.)

[horizon]

For anyone who wants official copies of this trainwreck:

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/age-of-sigmar-compendiums

Many rules have special activation requirments- and special describes them perfectly. Examples include:
-Rolling dice out of a chalice, while loudly shouting 'For the Lady!'
-Dancing as you roll the dice- extra benefits if you can get your opponent to dance as well.
-Loudly issuing an Orcish challenge
-Screaming 'Waaagh!!!'
-Wearing a hoodie
-Winning a starting contest with your opponent
-Having a better beard than your opponent
-Having a better moustache than your opponent
-Making eye contact with your opponent
-Avoiding eye contact with your opponent
... the list goes on.

I am not making this up. Read the army 'Battlescrolls' in the above link- all of the above are requirements to activate special rules.

Belated first of April joke?

Long ago I played whfb. And maybe it needed change but this seems... A joke?

[CyberShadow]

As much as I like BoLS, I am not a fan at all of their YouTube 'reviews'. That said.... AoS run through here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqunT2T6a94

I thought that the 96 page book was more rules.... but not so much. Pretty pictures and story stuff. Typical GW.

EDIT - One thing that did jump out at me.... As a combination of  measuring from the model itself and not the base (which will at least avoid things like the 40K Terminator issue!), and the bizarre way that the models are cut for the sprues (shoulders and head one piece, front of body one piece, head and back one piece on another model....), it seems like GW are really no longer encouraging conversions. This would be a massive change, as GW always made a big deal about extra parts, poseable kits, variety and options, customisation, etc. But with AoS it seems that the models only go together one way, are not cross compatible with other minis, and actually need to be restricted to the stock poses for the rules to work.

Personally, this might be the biggest change that AoS brings to the table.... and the one that I like the least.

[Irisado]

I like the fact that the rules are short, but I'm not a fan of the lack of originality (copying Kings of War isn't impressive), and I have concerns about the total lack of balance.  I don't understand how the game is supposed to work when there's no way within the rules to balance the armies.  It doesn't make sense.

GW sewed the seeds of the demise of Fantasy through massive unit sizes and rule changes to force players to build larger and larger regiments if they wanted to be able to win.  I agree with earlier remarks that this priced players out of the game, and this is exactly what happened to me.

[andydorman]

Personally I don't think either 40k or fantasy battle have ever been balanced in any meaningful way - at least with this they're not pretending to be able to. I think it looks fine for what it is but it's not for deciding who's "better" at the game.

[Darkson]

and the bizarre way that the models are cut for the sprues (shoulders and head one piece, front of body one piece, head and back one piece on another model....),

Might have missed it, but where did you see that? Might have missed it in the video, as I've no interest in AoS so wasn't wasting 25mins of my life watching a video about it. 

[CyberShadow]

Yes, its in the video. The larger Chaos model (no idea on names or types) appears to be:
- torso back section
- torso front left section
- torso front right section
- head and shoulders section on top to hold it all in place

I like the fact that the rules are short, but I'm not a fan of the lack of originality (copying Kings of War isn't impressive), and I have concerns about the total lack of balance.  I don't understand how the game is supposed to work when there's no way within the rules to balance the armies.  It doesn't make sense.

I dont know for sure, but it seems to be that the victory conditions are a consequence of how outnumbered you are. Therefore, bringing more troops would allow you to kill more, but put you at a disadvantage to winning the game.... although this is a large handful of speculation.

[Irisado]

The outnumbering rule is one option, while there is also a set of specific bonus points whereby you choose one of those listed in the table, such as kill the opposing wizard, and these can bolster your chances of victory it would seem.  It's all pretty unsatisfactory for working out a result in my opinion.

[CyberShadow]

Ex-GW Employee Tuomas Pirinen has written a very interesting, and I think balanced, set of his thoughts on Age of Sigmar, via Facebook. I am not sure if it is shared, or if everyone here is on Facebook, so I will give an attempted link, and quote his comments here (without his permission).

https://www.facebook.com/DesignbyTuomasPirinen/posts/1620250038223421

WARHAMMER AGE OF SIGMAR -PRODUCT DECONSTRUCTION

OK, there is no way I can skip this, I've been buried with requests to write what I think about the new Warhammer: Age of Sigmar rules. Better get on with it then.

Disclaimer: all the thoughts and opinions here are my own, and do not reflect the official line of Games Workshop in any way, shape or form. I've not worked for GW in over a decade. I reserve the right to be completely wrong about this.
 
OVERVIEW AND PRODUCT STRATEGY

I've spent a fair amount of time reading the rules for Warhammer: the Age of Sigmar, and the associated War Scrolls, and I've gone through the miniatures range and the background.

Key takeaways: Free, much streamlined rules with visually stunning (if 40K-ish) models that are very expensive speaks to me of a strategy: with these rules, many more new people can try the game and grasp the rules rapidly. Some of those will like the game, and a portion will be able to afford the cost associated with it, and without points limits on the armies, they can spend as little or as much as they wish on the game.

I see that the new miniature range will attract many collectors, and perhaps a fewer gamers -possibly a valid approach, business-wise.

All in all this targets a very particular kind of consumer: Wealthy, social, and focused on collectability of very high-quality designs -very much the Apple tactic. It is a huge gamble to see if this is new direction works. It may also be that a completely new world will allow GW to target a new breed of gamers not exposed to Warhammer before.

To understand the shift in the game it is important to see that many things are in play here that your average hobbyist does not need to care about: the shelf space in the shops (Warhammer always took massive amount of space), the spiralling cost associated with making a physical product, the intense competition from both physical and digital games and the rise of 3D printing in the near future.

MINIATURES

When it comes to miniature sculpting, the rigid unit hierarchy of classic Warhammer limits them, which was always problem when compared to 40K. Thus I am not surprised to see the round bases and much larger models with far more articulation. They are eye-catching and have been made with collectability in mind. They also are so complex that the immediate danger of 3D printing will have been averted at least for a while.

Overall, many of the miniatures are stunningly well made, and I doubt another company can match the sheer intricate detail of these anytime soon. Whatever people like the designs themselves is another matter, but they do that that modern western design vibe. As always, a matter of taste.

THE RULES

The rules themselves have some very nifty ideas, and I am happy that some of the show real creativity and opportunities for interesting situations during game. I do like some of the risk/reward elements such as the charging rules. Some I do not understand, like gaining a major bonus if you won your previous match whenever that may have been. This sets off the game skewered towards one side.

In general, the new rules are streamlined, short, easy-to-absorb and will lead into quite straightforward games. Without tactical maneuvering and flank/back bonuses, the games will most likely become immense killing grounds in the middle, with one side completely wiped out, and the result having a lot to do with luck. I also see some worrying opportunities for cheating, especially with customizing models for extra reach. But I honestly also see a lot of opportunity for fun and tense moments too, in a casual gaming sort of way.

And those dreaded dancing rules... I am personally not a designer that likes to enforce the players to dance, sing or shout during a game: many gamers are introverted, or have disabilities or health conditions that do not allow them to perform a cha-cha-cha moves in the middle of the game. I see the wish to make Warhammer more social, but I would not have gone this way myself: rather, I would have given the players other rewards than game bonuses for awkward behavior.

All in all, the rules are simplified, streamlined, and clearly aimed at getting as many new people as possible to try out the rules.

THE WARHAMMER WORLD

I am of course sad to see Warhammer world go, as it was a labor of love for so many people for so many years, including me. It is one of the most iconic and enduring fantasy worlds ever created. But I do see some of the logic: the Warhammer world was complete, and a low-fantasy world. In order to bring more fantastical creatures and new armies (without making it impossible to fit all the new models into the Warhammer shops) a clean slate was the easy way forward. Personally hard for me to see, but if the gamble pays off it might well be worth it for GW.

I also hazard a guess that there will be a more advanced ruleset for more tactical and strategic players who have outgrown the 4-page rules. I especially think we will see supplements for magic. Without any further rules development, I am not sure about the longevity of the game. Easy-to-pick-up, difficult-to-master is the Holy Grail of the game design, and I am not quite sure these rules are there yet. To keep customers returning, games need long-term engagement, and that requires more depth to delve into. I think we will see this in the coming months.

CLOSING THOUGHTS

As always, I wish GW and its staff the greatest of success -the livelihood of many families depends on It. Many fantastically talented people work at the Studio and beyond whom I respect more than words can say. I see Age of Sigmar as a huge gamble, and it will be interesting to see if it pays off. I also feel that it may have been a gamble they had to take in one form or another. We might see a smaller playerbase, but very lucrative one to emerge from these rules and miniatures.

Lastly, I want to say this. If you enjoy the new rules and models, hold your head up high: every gamer has the right to like whatever they damn well please. But respect the old guard, they built the hobby into what it is today.

If you don't like the rules, I absolutely get it. Please don't take it out on the people that do like them. As gamers we've never had as much choice and quality to choose from. when it comes to our gaming.

Thoughtful critique and discussion wins over bitterness every time.