[AL] Bone Thrower

[Aldhick]

Bone thrower
  issue: extremely limited use. Effective only against infantry in column or cavalry being hit into flank.
              Regarding atrillery move of 10cm and range 40cm it comes rarely to use.
 solution: it does 2 attacks to the front stand per stand.

[mdivancic]

Would you keep the cost the same? Looking forward to trying.

[Aldhick]

Well, I'd leave it up for discussion. Bone thrower is under-performing no matter the point cost. However 65 points make it quite expensive anyway, especially when compared to cannon for 85pts (I know it's tricky to compare anything to cannon, as it is extremely well-performing unit regarding point cost). I suspect that the higher costs anlong with rock lobber are mainly for the "ignore armor" rule. Though I wouldn't like to touch the point costs unless necessary

I see 2 options on which I'd like to hear your opinion.
 1. make it 2 attacks on first stand and keep the rest of the rules (can hit up to three touching stands). That would effectively increase the total attacks against unit in column to 8 from original 6. In comparison cannon has range of 60cm, can make the same amount of damage on a unit in column  but can do even two more attacks on another stand positioned up to 1cm behind the unit. With move 10 cm, range 40 cm and not completely dull enemy, you usually won't get too many chances to shoot at units in columns or cavalry into flank.

 2. If you think the first option is too strong for 65 points, the second one is to make it 2 attacsk on first stand and allow it only to hit up to two touching stands. That retains the number of attacks against unit in column, but makes the bone thrower more useful  against units in different formation (lines) or against charging units (against which it is completely useless under original rules).

[Ole]

I would favour Option 1. bu i like to remind very ohne that you are allowed to stand AMD shoot with a bone trower. Ad any Point of Enemy movment. And with the Support rules from wmr that is Even more handy, is it Not?

Ole

[Aldhick]

I would favour Option 1. bu i like to remind very ohne that you are allowed to stand AMD shoot with a bone trower. Ad any Point of Enemy movment. And with the Support rules from wmr that is Even more handy, is it Not?

Ole

But you still move units one at a time and the charging unit stand by stand into contact with charged unit. So there's no way you could apply the 'shooting through ranks' rule on charging unit. So you'd get 4 attacks against the first charging unit, and that's all.

[Ole]

It has been explaint in a couple of warmags. You can do the stand and shoot "before" the first stand has moved, but is going to be.

Ole

[Aldhick]

So you are saying that if there are three units in line one behind the other and the first one charges the bone thrower, I can stand and shoot and hit the other two units even when they were not charging? That's kind of confusing.

[Grimnir]

So you are saying that if there are three units in line one behind the other and the first one charges the bone thrower, I can stand and shoot and hit the other two units even when they were not charging? That's kind of confusing.

I have to give them a bit more thinking. But just on this bit:
The wording in the stand-and-shoot says that the shots are worked out at the time the chargers get in touch with the shooting unit. Which suggests that would be the moment to do the shooting.
But there also is a special section mentioning the bolt throwers (which bone throwers are a variant of, I believe). And what would be the point of that section if the shooting could not be done at any time during the charge? I think it was meant to emphasize that by destroying a stand, you can create a LoS for another unit (and you do not create gaps in the battle line.)

But as we are doing amendments to the rules, and this has been explained in the warmags, I suggest we make a woding chage in the rules to clear this out. (I is not really a change, just a clarification.)

[Aldhick]

But there also is a special section mentioning the bolt throwers (which bone throwers are a variant of, I believe). And what would be the point of that section if the shooting could not be done at any time during the charge? I think it was meant to emphasize that by destroying a stand, you can create a LoS for another unit (and you do not create gaps in the battle line.)

Well this is mentionet for most of the artillery, so I don't think it indicates anything


I checked the FAQ in Warmag (8 iirc) and Ole is right. But I still think this explanation is kind of unfortunate as I feel this was done in effort to make bone throwers not as useless as they are. However it didn't make bone thrower much better while it complicated and confused the procedure.

 -  if I'm not mistaken, the bone/bolt throwers are the only unit type where the issue of possibility to shoot at chargers before they actually started moving matters.
 - it is kind of philosophical question, whether unit starts to charge by declaring it is gonna do so, or by starting the actual movement.
 - the possibility of BT to shoot at a charger before it moved gives an opportunity to hit by S&S units, that are not even charging - is there any other situation where this is possible?

On the other hand, giving it 2 S&S attack per stand would be too strong imo, as the shots are no AS.

So one option is to follow the FAQ version (which I personally do not like much) - This would make BT really effective against charging infantry.

Another option is to clarify the S&S by letting it make for example 1 no AS attack per stand

[Lex]

At any time during the charge means just that.......

It allows ALL S&S to work against ALL chargers even if chargers start out of effective range.
Wounds carry over into the first round of fire, EVEN if they destroy a stand !! (good to remember this)
IIRC cannons loose their bounce on S&S (assuming they would use something akin to canister), but the Undead BT retains its skewer-effect ??

The defender can opt to hit the attacking unit on its starting position (which could potentially bring into play the skewer), somewhere along the path of the FIRST MOVING STAND (almost certain it WONT hit additional stands) or after the charging unit is in place - but BEFORE any other chargers are moved......

So unless you charge in column. I dont see the problem with the rules as they are now

[Aldhick]

What the rules say (p. 30 of the pdf document, Stand and Shoot section):

Note  that  shots  from  bolt  throwers  can  penetrate
enemy stands and affect other stands or units behind
the  target. Shots  are  always  calculated  from  the
position of the chargers at the end of their move – so
penetration  can  be  easily  calculated  from  the  final
position of the charging unit.

So if I understand the language well, the hits in this case should be calculated after the moving of charges. So the skewer would have effect only when charging from 18cm apart and thus forming a column.
However FAQ in Warmag 9 (p.34) says something partialy different.

Q. An enemy unit is charging an Undead Bone Thrower.
Can shots from the Bone Thrower penetrate when fired
as a stand and shoot attack at the chargign enemy unit?

A. Yes, shots will penetrate - the only bone! of contention is
 'when exactly are you assumed to shoot' as this will obviously
affect the penetratiton. The shooter can shoot at any time during
the charger's move but the penetrating attack is most likely
right at the start of the move. The chances are that other units
won't be in a vulnerable position as the target moves, and in
most cases the chargers will form into line and so lose their own
vulnerability once they have charged. So, you can shoot at any
time during the move but you will find it convenient to do so either
with the unit in position at the start of its charge or once the charge is complete. 

So I'm missing something or is the FAQ partialy contradictring the rules?
However according to what FAQ say, it is possible to hit units behind the charging unit that are not charging themseves.

[Rowlybot]

I'd agree that the FAQ contradicts the rules. With WMR, with the support stands moving as part of the charge - could they be skewered? Or are they moved 'after' the charge and therefore after the Stand&Shoot response?

[Aldhick]

You always move one unit at time and you have to sove the S&S before you start moving the other unit

[Lex]

You always move one unit at time and you have to sove the S&S before you start moving the other unit

Actually even move then STAND at the time.

The FAQ was meant to bring the BT in line with the "normal" stand and shoot rules.

If you want to adres this issue it is IMO better to look at the generic rule first, and only if THAT is an issue, work top-down: 
GENERIC RULE
UNIT TYPE RULE
(ARMY SPECIFIC/RACIAL RULE)
UNIT RULE
SPECIAL RULE