new player question on pursuit/supporting pursuit positioning

[Apocolocyntosis]

afternoon all,

Been muddling my way through warmaster (using revolutions) with a friend online and have a question about pursuit positioning.

I'm assuming that supporting units can pursue due to 'Units are automatically included in any combat engagement where they support.' on p44 and due to supporting pursuits being a thing.



Red charge some blue archers with a unit in support (1), they win the round, forcing the archers to retreat (2).
Red pursue, but what is the correct positioning of the supporting unit in pursuit, given that two of the supporting stands can see the enemy (so are presumably not limited to just staying in support)? 3a, 3b, 3c?

3a seems ugly as it breaks up the stands of the unit
3b seems more practical but less agressive
3c might also make sense as you seem to be able to be generous with enveloping flank/rear in pursuit, but the rear of the target unit was not in line of sight to any of the pursuers (the unit was, the rear of the unit was not, does that matter?). 3c also involves the middle supporting stand moving into direct contact with an enemy it could not see, but im not sure if this line of sight matters at a stand or unit level.

help appreciated! sorry if im missing the obvious, finding some parts of the WM rules on charge positioning a bit opaque.

[Aldhick]

3a is illegal as you cannot split a unit. 3b and c are both legal. Stands that can pursu directly forward have to do so, rest can be positioned as desired so long it it is within movement range.

[Ole]

Is the moment range during pursuit not unlimited?

[Aldhick]

Is the moment range during pursuit not unlimited?

In Vanilla yes, in WMR no.

[Dave]

It is, not sure about WMR though.

Has support pursuing caused any balance issues? It seems pretty powerful to allow support to charge the enemy and potentially wrap 2/3 of the way around a unit, blocking off their retreat route.

[cjbennett22]

I recently pondered this myself during a pickup game the night before adepticon.  In the Revolution rules the supporing unit is "in combat" so they should be able to pursue but it felt a bit strong.  Put a lot of emphasis on the first round of combat and then that support line can swing around the back for round two and destroy just about everything.......

[Dave]

It seems even more abusive when you put 3 units in column behind the unit in line that's in combat. If that unit wins all of sudden you have 9 stands plus 1-3 more that live from the unit in combat that can pursue.

[Apocolocyntosis]

Thanks for the responses.

It seems even more abusive when you put 3 units in column behind the unit in line that's in combat. If that unit wins all of sudden you have 9 stands plus 1-3 more that live from the unit in combat that can pursue.

Although the units in column behind a full line would at least be limited to supporting in pursuit, as you can't pursue into base edge contact with a unit you didn't have LOS to (line in front blocking the LOS)?

First couple of times we played we were very hesitant in positioning pursuits, then got more and more 'aggressive' with how far around we positioned them (in keeping with what the rules seem to allow). That was fine until a situation like the one diagrammed above happened (3c style), when a support unit had LOS and swept in to swamp the target, which seemed a bit much!

[Aldhick]

In WMR the supporting unit has to be able to see the target in order to pursue and has to have sufficient move to get there. Never had any issues with that personaly.

[Aquahog]

Me neither. The paused combat rules also serve to block the effectiveness of pursuit. Infinite combat rounds are far more powerful.

[cjbennett22]

hang on, I just re-read the pursuit rules.....page 47 top right paragraph, pursuers cannot move into edge contact if they cannot see the retreating enemy, page 48 diagram has a supporting pursuer move into corner to corner contact and into the fight but without being able to see the enemy......so is corner to corner allowed for the pursuers?  Because I would have assumed that the front pursuer would have stayed in a nice clean, straight battle line, blocking all LOS and keeping their support as support for round 2

[cjbennett22]

hang on, I get it now.  Had to go home and think about it with my own models and put my head into the action sort of speak  LOL

[Dark Omen]

afternoon all,

Been muddling my way through warmaster (using revolutions) with a friend online and have a question about pursuit positioning.

I'm assuming that supporting units can pursue due to 'Units are automatically included in any combat engagement where they support.' on p44 and due to supporting pursuits being a thing.



Red charge some blue archers with a unit in support (1), they win the round, forcing the archers to retreat (2).
Red pursue, but what is the correct positioning of the supporting unit in pursuit, given that two of the supporting stands can see the enemy (so are presumably not limited to just staying in support)? 3a, 3b, 3c?

3a seems ugly as it breaks up the stands of the unit
3b seems more practical but less agressive
3c might also make sense as you seem to be able to be generous with enveloping flank/rear in pursuit, but the rear of the target unit was not in line of sight to any of the pursuers (the unit was, the rear of the unit was not, does that matter?). 3c also involves the middle supporting stand moving into direct contact with an enemy it could not see, but im not sure if this line of sight matters at a stand or unit level.

help appreciated! sorry if im missing the obvious, finding some parts of the WM rules on charge positioning a bit opaque.

I think there is another option.

In Situation 2 as you describe above, the Red stand (swords) in combat with Blue would Pursue directly forward as per Basic Pursuit. 
This would prevent the Supporting Unit (pitchforks) from Pursuing directly forward into edge contact, and would result in an Indirect Pursuit by the Supporting Unit (see WM Compendium page 48).

"Occasionally, you will find that no stands can pursue by moving straight ahead even though the unit can see a retreating enemy. In this case, a unit can pursue as long as at least one stand has a clear path towards the enemy. Take any one pursuing stand that can see the retreating enemy. Move the stand into contact with the closest visible enemy stand exactly as you would during a charge. Having placed the first stand, remaining stands are positioned as the player wishes, as already described for basic pursuits"


The key here is "exactly as you would during a charge". As the Supporting pitchfork unit is in the Front, not in the Flank of the retreating Blue stand, the only legal charge it could make would be against a Pinned target, so front corner to front corner.


My solution is option 3d.
Put one Pitchfork stand either side of the Swords stand, so they are corner to corner fighting against the retreating blue stand. Put the remaining Pitchfork stand directly behind the Swords stand, so the Pitchforks maintain unit formation by corner to corner contact.


Hope this makes sense...