Specialist Arms Forum
Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Discussion => Topic started by: spiritusXmachina on May 02, 2009, 09:35:13 PM
-
Am I unfair? I don't know. But there are a few things that irritate me about the now valid Skaven-list. To be exact three things. And I wanted to know if I am totally alone with that opinion...
1) Point cost
In the year 2004 (I think) there was a Skaven army list. In it quite a bunch of Skaven units cost about 5pts less than other similar units. That was balanced by the fact that Skaven were only allowed to make an advance move if they destroyed their enemies in the first combat round - sounded fair.
Strangely enough in the now valid army list this Advance restriction just disappeared - but the unit cost did not change!...
2) Sreaming Bell
Yes, of course it is bulky, expensive and vulnerable (if their general is daring enough to not hide it behind three lines of Skaven). Still it gives all heroes within 30cm a +1 on command! Which effectively could mean up to 5 (!!) characters with command of 9 (!) at 2000 pts. As far as I remember the former Lizardmen "Divine Guidance" had a similar effect - and provoked lot of opposition within our playing community! And not enough with that the Screaming Bell offers some nice extra - it gives all enemy characters within 30cm a -1 on command. What else could a little rat ask for!
3) Gutter Runners
Infiltrators are quite a delicate topic. On the one side they could add some spice to the game - on the other hand in times some WM-circles heavily discuss restriction of the other unit type that can suddenly appear in the back of troops - flyers - it is not easy to draw in another of those unit types.
I am for introducing infiltrators. But I would prefer to make them an expensive and hard to use unit than to unbalance the whole game. So I would advice to introduce them very, very carefully!
And that's not what I meet when I look at Gutter Runners. First of all a Skaven player could place 8 (!!) units of infiltrating Gutter Runners at 2000 pts. Then he could place them within spitting distance of the enemy - they just watch - they don't touch. But only when they are placed! Because the Skaven player could go on commanding them in the very round he placed them (if a Skaven character is within 20cm). So with some luck (and a bit of risk) a brigade of gutter runners (or even more) could appear and charge a brigade of let's say enemy warmachines in the second round of game. Or even better - just shoot it! 15 cm is enough for that.
That's not what I would call "careful" introduction.
So, what do you all think about it?
Am I just a little too negative?
-
Am I unfair? I don't know. But there are a few things that irritate me about the now valid Skaven-list. To be exact three things. And I wanted to know if I am totally alone with that opinion...
Dang Gerald 8) you even won that game (oh yeah, but I still played by the old rule of No Advance after combat ;) )
... but I guess it was a scary experience seeing a capable general handling Skaven :P
1) Point cost
In the year 2004 (I think) there was a Skaven army list. In it quite a bunch of Skaven units cost about 5pts less than other similar units. That was balanced by the fact that Skaven were only allowed to make an advance move if they destroyed their enemies in the first combat round - sounded fair.
Strangely enough in the now valid army list this Advance restriction just disappeared - but the unit cost did not change!...
Hmmm after the first "experimental" Skaven rules Rick and Andy overhauled it ... IIRC there where actualy several changes.
- Stormvermin where introduced, and made more expensive then the average-mickey, and that at the cost of
- Jezail loosing stats, but NOT cost
and consider this Army does not have:
- flyers
- very effective artillery
2) Sreaming Bell
Yes, of course it is bulky, expensive and vulnerable (if their general is daring enough to not hide it behind three lines of Skaven). Still it gives all heroes within 30cm a +1 on command! Which effectively could mean up to 5 (!!) characters with command of 9 (!) at 2000 pts. As far as I remember the former Lizardmen "Divine Guidance" had a similar effect - and provoked lot of opposition within our playing community! And not enough with that the Screaming Bell offers some nice extra - it gives all enemy characters within 30cm a -1 on command. What else could a little rat ask for!
Well, you did have probably the most "handicaped" army to go up against the Ratties, but then again, even your Peasants where able to stem of the rats and called first blood, did they not ??
Seeing that I wont be playing Skaven against you for some time to come, I will let you in on a little secret. That Bell dont move all that well when there is no ratz to move it around, and I am sure if you re-read the rules about positioning you will see some options to make it less effective there as well. And, from mouse to man, lets be honnest, I dont even NEED 4 more characters at Ld 9 to move my Ratz.
Oh yeah, and just make sure your opponent dont sneak a Ld 10 general under the Bell influence on you, the bonus is only for heros and warlocks.
That said, I would not be adverse to a discussion to limiting the bonus to just the FIRST order in a turn for characters (excepting the general) in each turn.
3) Gutter Runners
Infiltrators are quite a delicate topic. On the one side they could add some spice to the game - on the other hand in times some WM-circles heavily discuss restriction of the other unit type that can suddenly appear in the back of troops - flyers - it is not easy to draw in another of those unit types.
I am for introducing infiltrators. But I would prefer to make them an expensive and hard to use unit than to unbalance the whole game. So I would advice to introduce them very, very carefully!
And that's not what I meet when I look at Gutter Runners. First of all a Skaven player could place 8 (!!) units of infiltrating Gutter Runners at 2000 pts. Then he could place them within spitting distance of the enemy - they just watch - they don't touch. But only when they are placed! Because the Skaven player could go on commanding them in the very round he placed them (if a Skaven character is within 20cm). So with some luck (and a bit of risk) a brigade of gutter runners (or even more) could appear and charge a brigade of let's say enemy warmachines in the second round of game. Or even better - just shoot it! 15 cm is enough for that.
That's not what I would call "careful" introduction.
So, what do you all think about it?
Am I just a little too negative?
Uhhh... I beg to consider the following:
1) you need terrain (or a table edge) to deploy Gutter Runners in, they cant plonk on a bare table
2) the -1 for distance to enemy counts as normal for the command role to have them infiltrate
3) I can only summon them a UNIT at the time which means
--a) after I summoned them, IF I want to attack with them, I need to attack with THAT unit BEFORE I give any other orders (iow before I can summon other Gutter Runners
--b) I would need to have a character within 20 cm to be able to give that order (which early in the game would be a dead give-away what I am up to, and probably means easy points for you to kill the character
--c) to have the Gutter Runners charge, I am -1 for 2d order, -1 for proximity of enemy
4) Flyers in your backfield provide the same kind of threat on an artillery base, and can be in place too, and attack on initiative on a second turn.
There was considerable discusion on the subject before the V2.2 lists made the current Skaven list "official", and most of that discussion was on creating the current Gutter Runners rules which where accepted as is by the PTB (or to be more accurate, changed by them)
I would consider one possible "softning up" that might help to alliviate part of the issue. Establish the Army BP discounting the Gutter Runners that are NOT yet deployed. As you should remember from our game at the EuroGT, having 8 units non-deployed actualy would make a Skaven general a bit more aprehenisve to take cassulties.
NEEK NEEK
-
As a regular skaven player I will give my thoughts on these 'issues'.
1) Point cost
In the year 2004 (I think) there was a Skaven army list. In it quite a bunch of Skaven units cost about 5pts less than other similar units. That was balanced by the fact that Skaven were only allowed to make an advance move if they destroyed their enemies in the first combat round - sounded fair.
Strangely enough in the now valid army list this Advance restriction just disappeared - but the unit cost did not change!...
Isn't the reduced point cost also to reflect the 'under the lash' rule of must be commanded within 20cm?
2) Sreaming Bell
Yes, of course it is bulky, expensive and vulnerable (if their general is daring enough to not hide it behind three lines of Skaven). Still it gives all heroes within 30cm a +1 on command! Which effectively could mean up to 5 (!!) characters with command of 9 (!) at 2000 pts. As far as I remember the former Lizardmen "Divine Guidance" had a similar effect - and provoked lot of opposition within our playing community! And not enough with that the Screaming Bell offers some nice extra - it gives all enemy characters within 30cm a -1 on command. What else could a little rat ask for!
Got to say we very rarely see this in play due to the reasons you initially mention.
for 125 points you can raise your break by a decent amount and have a very good missile screen to boot ;)
But seriously this again, I feel, is an attempt to negate the under the lash ruling. You do need a fair few commanders to get your army moving even with the no brigade limit.
How often have you seen a skaven army tear-arse down the table on turn one?
Now ask yourself the same question for High Elves as an example?
3) Gutter Runners
Infiltrators are quite a delicate topic. On the one side they could add some spice to the game - on the other hand in times some WM-circles heavily discuss restriction of the other unit type that can suddenly appear in the back of troops - flyers - it is not easy to draw in another of those unit types.
I am for introducing infiltrators. But I would prefer to make them an expensive and hard to use unit than to unbalance the whole game. So I would advice to introduce them very, very carefully!
And that's not what I meet when I look at Gutter Runners. First of all a Skaven player could place 8 (!!) units of infiltrating Gutter Runners at 2000 pts. Then he could place them within spitting distance of the enemy - they just watch - they don't touch. But only when they are placed! Because the Skaven player could go on commanding them in the very round he placed them (if a Skaven character is within 20cm). So with some luck (and a bit of risk) a brigade of gutter runners (or even more) could appear and charge a brigade of let's say enemy warmachines in the second round of game. Or even better - just shoot it! 15 cm is enough for that.
That's not what I would call "careful" introduction.
For this one I agree with Lex.
They are not as devastating as your post descibes.
When I have played against skaven more often than not my opponent forgets to deploy them. :-X
Or even worse when I play them I forget to deploy them :-[
They do however make up for the lack of flyers in the army quite efficiently.
I say why fix it if it isn't broke.
One of the big attractions for the game in our circle is the fact that the rules/lists are reasonably well balanced, each list having specific strengths and weaknesses that MUST be exploited in or to win with a particular force.
Another is the fact that we do not get rules revisions for the sake of it every six months as per WFB.
I know there is a move towards 'tournament lists' but I don't agree with these either.
A good general can win with whatever force he chooses a large percentage of the time whilst the stronger armies give new players at least a chance of winning a game or two while they figure out what they need to do.
-
Isn't the reduced point cost also to reflect the 'under the lash' rule of must be commanded within 20cm?
Maybe but Skaven have an unlimited size for brigades, that should make up for the 20cm command range.
The bell is very powerful, basically skaven can ignore terrain within 50cm around the bell and additionaly enemy commanders suffer -1 to their commands. And with all the other cheap units its not a big problem to spend 125 points for it.
-
@Lex: This game you mention much more felt like a victory of yours! Remember the Scenario rules! If I remember correctly I had 500 vp in advance - this scenario was not meant to be won by the attacker. And I guess you would have won if you would have done your advance moves.
But this game was not the only one against Skaven I experienced/watched! We have a Skaven player around here. And we had tournaments and regular club meetings.
Isn't the reduced point cost also to reflect the 'under the lash' rule of must be commanded within 20cm?
Not imo. I would say the "under the lash" rule is balanced by the fact that there is no brigade restriction... Or is it the fact that Skaven are allowed to pursue everything, including cavalry and flyers?
Got to say we very rarely see this in play due to the reasons you initially mention.
for 125 points you can raise your break by a decent amount and have a very good missile screen to boot ;)
Well, then you should try it once. You might see that one HE General with 10cmd is nothing against three to five Characters with 9 cmd. Believe me, High Elves are a bunch of chaotic idiots against that. I experienced the 9cmd characters against Skaven and I experienced that versus Lizardmen with their former "Divine Guidance".
For this one I agree with Lex.
They are not as devastating as your post descibes.
When I have played against skaven more often than not my opponent forgets to deploy them. :-X
That's no argument! Or is it that only very forgetful people are allowed to play Skaven?
About Gutter Runners: Lex, you're right. You'd need a lot of good orders.
But that example was an extreme one. There's a lot of safer uses for GRs. Just begin to gather them in a wood that's near enough to the enemy. You could immediately shoot and with just a little luck you also could get another GR as support - the Probability for that is very fair - with a Screaming Bell it is not unlikely that you'll put a whole brigade in that wood (6 shots? Even better). Compared with flyers - no army can get a whole brigade of flyers into your back - they don't give each other support they may not be placed in woods and few flyers are able to shoot.
I am not totally against Skaven infiltrators.
-) Let's begin to restrict their number. GR Min/Max -/2 is far more than enough - that's double the number than most armies are able to put in flyers.
-) GR stands should be placed outside of 20cm of the enemy
-) they have to be placed so that no enemy unit is able to draw line of sight.
That way GRs still are an interesting unit but no no-brainer.
I say why fix it if it isn't broke
I disagree, this Skaven army is broken at the moment. Maybe it does not need too much change, but it does need some.
Just to point that out. I am no Skaven-hater :) I always thought it's an interesting army with character. But it definitely is not balanced at the moment. And the latest changes added to that.
Greetings,
Gerald
-
you have attempted to argue against the weaker points of my argument.
But what about the other points I raise?
This sort of 'nerfing' does nothing but drive people away from an already small community!
Trust me that is what has happened in my location!
-
I would like to refrain from the discussion as I have the smallest experience of game versus Skaven. The opinions of both sides contain a rational grain. IIRC there is possible to create a super-list from any army (excepting, probably, Kislev), and this army still will be quite balanced and acceptable for opponents (unlike similar armies in FB). On the other hand - the infiltration rule is insufficiently correct in my opinion, but (in this case) is counterbalanced enough with appropriate restrictions.
And, Gerald, yes - you are a little too negative here ;) WAAC warmaster is a nonsense IMHO.
-
I would advise anyone to play against skaven and see what they are capable of. I had 2 games in a local tournament and in the first one I had 2 Gutter Runners shooting at my knights in the first round. Of course they didnt do damage but drivebacks luckily without causing confusion. They ended up dead (2 rounds later) but not only do you get a -1 (like flyers in the back), they are extra annoying as you have to kick them out of a defended position. I think a max. of 2 per 1000P would suffice and would be a good compromise.
And the second game was the forest scenario in which he moved like youd expect a highelf would ignoring the -1 terrain penalty thanks to the bell. Which meant my commanders often started their command phase with a -1 and had to make some orders with a -3 (forest, enemy and the bell). What I find most annoying with the bell is, that it affects the characters and not the units within 30cm. I think it is to much to gain an advantage for you characters and a disadvantage for enemy chars in my opinion it should be one or the other.
@Bel: Well with the min/max restrictions of most armies there isnt much room for superlists, because you would end up with fewer expensive units or with a mass army. Which both has his pros and cons.
-
Of the people who are voicing 'concerns' over the 3 year old skaven army list may I ask what armies they have used to face them with?
-
@Bel: Well with the min/max restrictions of most armies there isnt much room for superlists, because you would end up with fewer expensive units or with a mass army. Which both has his pros and cons.
Exactly. Wasn't my sentence clearly enough?
-
Of the people who are voicing 'concerns' over the 3 year old skaven army list may I ask what armies they have used to face them with?
I faced them with my bretonians.
-
Just great! I would treat this discussion as a warm-up before the really big thing waiting for us in autumn time I expect 8)
Skaven are great army and I will focus on them seriously if their hit rate in tournaments reaches half of the result of High Elves. Before I assume they are balanced enough. Every army in hands of skilled and/or experienced general is fearsome.
I do not have any negative comments up to now concerning new Skaven list. I had before because they were too weak, but even then they managed to win the tournament once in Poland.
But if we go this way we would have to limit all the armies Chris Burnett is playing for example. This is tricky...
-
OK, my Skaven list for EuroGT XV, and for the record, I ended LAST of the WM players at the event.................
Vanguard (400 + 10) --> 400 points / 7 units = BP 4
Hero
Warlock
Warplightning Cannon
Plague Monks
Jezail
Swarm
Swarm
Swarm
Swarm
Main Army (1200) --> 1175 + dispell scroll / 15 units = BP 8
Grey Seer NOT riding
Screaming Bell
Hero
Warlock
Warplightning Cannon
Rat Ogres
Jezail
7 units of clanrats
5 units of Gutter Runners
Rearguard (400 + 10) --> 410 points / 4 units = BP 2
Hero
Warlock
Warplightning Cannon
Plague Monks
Jezails
Rat Ogres
When the entire army gets fielded in a 2000 pts game it amounts to 26 units = BP 13. As I said before, I can live with the GR ONLY counting for BP when they make it on table, but that still puts my BP at 11 at the start of the game with all 5 GR units in reserve.
-
As part of the mechanics for the Playtest team to get formalized input from the larger Warmaster community we created a set of Playtest forms.
On the issue of "Chasing Mice", I would like to kick off this part of the project, and ask all players who play any kind of game with or against Skaven to use the following link to report their results.
PLAYTEST REPORTING (https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=nl&formkey=cEgyeDdoVTJxZHJkWG5pcWZmNHJ1TXc6MA..)
-
The reasons I bring this up now are the following.
-) First, we have this forum again. Which is great! :D
-) Some years ago I was asked for my opinion about Skaven and I told my concerns about the Screaming Bell. But at that time the restricted Advance Move was still there and the Gutter Runners were created afterwards by the powers to be (I guess). And unfortunately Skaven were made an official army instead of being Trial which makes all of this worse.
-) I prefer to tell my opinion if I know what I'm talking about and since this year's beginning I have seen Skaven in action regularly.
-) Sometimes an army is played so sparsely, not maxed out or just played wrong that no one notices its strength for a long time. Lex played with Advance Restriction at EuroGT, Azrael never used the Screaming Bell...
Heavens, every one thought Daemons were perfectly balanced until someone who played them regularly pointed that out. It also took some time until the problems with the former "Divine Guidance" were noticed...
-) There is no bad time to bring up topics that are justified imo. And that is the one topic that is the most interesting for me at the moment. So I like Getlord's appeal to see it as a warm-up.
-) We are just starting a ME campaign at the moment. We will use the feedback form.
Greetings,
Gerald
-
We have one polish player, who fields always at least 20 units of rat swarms.
We are able to beat him, it's hard but not impossible.
I think HE and Khemri are two best armies, not rats. Mice are nothing compared to "shock" flyers joined by dragon mount and attacking your flank.
-
Lex, could you plz put a Playtest Report link into the Publication/Development Section? So, it would be easier to find it again for other players too.
Greetings,
Gerald
-
One question on my side with regard to "Screaming Bell"
Why the hell does it give +1 on all Skaven Commanders Command abbility that are within 30cm range of the bell and in additon -1 to the comand ability of each enemy hero that is within 30cm range of it.
You remember Lizzardmen and "Divine Guidance" ... it´s almost the same or even worse in my opinion and there is big discussion to change "Divine Guidance".
Don´t tell me Skaven are poor as you can only command them within 20cm....it´s the same for Lizzardment Cold Blooded ones.
If you position your heroes well ..... you get in total 4 Leadership 9 heroes (including the general) and in addition reduce the command ability of your opponent.
I took myself some time to think about Skaven abilities.....and to be honest....now I can understand Spiritus becoming a mice chaser ;)
Don´t get me wrong......I like Skaven army and most of the part or their rules but "Screaming Bell"...come on this item is completely screwed. I will do some games vers Skaven with my Armies (Daemon, Lizzardmen, Araby...etc. and I will give reports) .... but one thing is clear ....don´t put your troop in difficult terrain if Skaven is fielding "Screaming Bell" as you probably will not be in a position to command them. ...especially if Gutter Runners are part of the army.
Don´t answer ....but think about it.....+1 on own command values and -1 to command values of opponent ..... in worst case meaning a leadership 10 general and leadership 9 heroes for a mass army !!!
-
The +1 on command does only apply to sorcerers and heroes. So no 10cmd general!
I agree with everything else though.
Greetings,
Gerald
-
Yep ... the game vs Gerald's Chaos showed me how amazing the bell is ... a bit too amazing I guess.
-
Hi, had this weekend one of my games vers Skaven. I put my Lizzardmen army on the battlefield (applied trial rules where you can give Divine Guidance only to 1 Skink Hero withing 20cm before starting commands and if he fails command phase is over as like the general failed to command)
We had a very nice game that ended after turn 4 (No I will no tell you result before....read the whole report)
Skaven had a Breakpoint of 16 (a lot fo Rat Swarms, around 6 units Clanrats, 2 units Rat Ogres, 2 units Monks, 2-3 units Storm Vermin, 3 units Jesszails and 2 units Gutter runners, 4 units Warp Lightning Cannons, 1 Screaming Bell, 1 General, 2 Sorcerer, 1 heroe)
Lizzardmen had a Breakpoint of 10 (9 Units Saurus Warriors, 2 Units Kroxigor, 4 Units Skinks, 4 Units Cold one Riders, 3 Skink Heroes, 2 Shamans 1 Slan)
We had nice Battefield with lot of terrain (woods, fields, hills and house).
Skaven started to move in 2 Big Brigades. 1 Surrounding the Bell and 1 with the 4 Warp Lightning Cannons. Nothing real important to say then this. Skaven player made 2 mistakes. 1 one. He put the Gutter runners in a field around 15 cm in front of my troops (not visible for me) and 1 sorcere on my left flank to cast nasty spells on my Cold one Riders.
Thus said in my turn I took the chance to get them both. I charged the Gutter Runners in the field with 2 units Cold one Riders and where able to trap the Skaven Sorcerer in the woods with a unit Saurus warriors and Skinks. I als positioned 1 Brigade of 2 Saurus Warrior units and 1 Skink unit in a field of grain almost in the center of the left flank. Magic....yes Magic :) I decided to go for snipering the Warp Lighnting Cannons and had Succes. I killed 2 of them by Magic.
Skavens 2nd turn....nothing real important to say. Command of big Brigade failed as units where in the wood and the dice showed a nine. General put the Brigade of remaining Warp Lightning Canon, Clan Rats and Swarms together as the snipered Canons where the linking unit between the whole Brigade.
Lizzardmens turn again. Positioned my troops better in the Center and succeeded in getting 5 units (4 x Saurus Warriors and 2 times Skins in the field of grain that were in the center of the left flank. 1 Unit skinks in the Front supported by Saurus warriors and 2 units of Saurus warrior on the edge looking at the center of the battlefield. Close enough at skaven to give -1 on Commands on first 2 units. Magic. This time I did not sniper on WarpLightning Canon....I forbid Rat Ogres to Attack.
Heros where placed around 10-15 cm behind their troops in order to avoid the -1 penalty on commands from the Screaming Bell.
3 turn Skaven. Skaven succeeded to Command and attacked my Skinks with Monks and the Saurus Warriors with Storm Vermin. Supported by the Rat Ogres and Clan Rats. Shooting of Warplightning did not do any harm as closest target where Kroxigors at the center on defended status. Saved all 2 hits.
Stand and shoot of Skinks did 2 hits at Monks. Monks + 1 Stand Storm Vermin with total 18 attacks hit on Skinks and succeeded in doing 5 hits damage. Remaining 2 stands Storm Vermin did 1 hit damage on Saurus Warriors. I myself did 6 hits damage on Monks and 2 hits damage on Storm Vermin. I decided to pursue but only with Saurus Warriors at the Storm Vermins. Push back confused the supporting Rat Ogres. I did again hits damage and lost myself 1 Stand Saurus Warriors. Fallback brought me in the back of the Rat Ogres and Supporting Clanrats that were faced at the front by another 2 units Saurus Warriors.
3 turn Lizzardmen. Charging remaining stand Monks in the front with Saurus Warriors, Clarats in the Back with 2 remaining stands Skinks.Remaining stand Storm Vermin in the Front With Saurus Warriors and Rat Ogres in the Back with remaining 2 stands of Saurus warriors. Started combat at Rat Ogres (killed them) proceeded with remaining Storm Vermin, Clanrats and Monks (killed in first turn allowing to advance 2 units Saurus warriors into the front of Rat Swarms and Clanrats and the other unit Saurus Warriors inton their edge) Made a fall back with Skinks and Saurus warriors that only had 1 stand left. The new close combat allowed me to kill 1 unit Swarms, 1 unit Clan Rats and another unit Rat ogres by gettin myself only minor damage. Only lost 1 Stand of Saurus warriors.
Made fallback with both units into the center of the battlefield (15cm Fall back) allowing me to be prepared for any countercharge on units that want to destroy the Saurus warriors.
Again I positioned my heros behind my troops to avoid affect of Screaming Bell.
4th turn Skaven. Initiative Charge on remaining 2 stands of Saurus Warriors and initiative Charge on full Saurus warrior unit in the center Battlefield. Commands brought some support ot the close combats but the -1 command penalty of my troops being close to the skaven were working again and only the Brigade with remaining Warp Lighting Canons were positioned on a hill on ther right center flank of the battlefield surrounded by 3 units Jezzails. Shooting of Warp Lightning killed 1 Stand Saurus warriors (but no confusion caused). Close combat killed the unit of remaining 2 stands Saurus Warriors and the one in the center of battlefield ended with a draw.
Turn of Lizzardmen. Charged the Storm Vermins and Clanrats the succeeded in getting the Draw result in the center Battlefield. Charged the jezzails on the hill with Kroxigor units (stand and shoot cause only 1 hit damage) and Charged with 2 commands and 2 units of Cold one Riders the back units of the Skaven.
Center Charge killed 2 units Skaven(Storm Vermin and Clanrats) and I advanced into next units of Clanrats and Rat Swarms. Charge of Cold one Riders killed another 2 units of Skaven (Clan Rats and Swarms) and had to make Fall Back. Charge of 2nd unit of cold one Riders kille Rat swarms, Clan Rats, the Screaming Bell (with which I got in accidential contact) and another unit of Rat Swarms.....
Here the story ends......Breakpoint 16 of Skaven army reached at this turn.
My losses. 1 unit Saurus warriors and 2 units of Saurus and 1 unit auf Skinks lost 2 stands each.
Feedback: Skaven are nice and powerfull army but if you know the weak point of this army then you can do it. Allways take care of keeping your heroes far enough away from the Screaming Bell (51 cm is advised by me). Let the Skaven the 1st strike but try to be in defended position. They have many units but they are weak in armor.
Keep your units and Brigades broad enough in order to avoid being surrounded by standard troops. (he still can put the gutter runners into your back if you are in terrain but hey.... no risk no fun. When charging concentrate on the hard hitting troops like Monks, Rat Ogres and Storm Vermins....as soon as they are gone the Skaven army has lost their teeth.
O.K. some of the dices rolled were into my favour but not really much of them. I would say...it was pretty much average result over the whole batlle.
Next report will follow when I challenge the rat pack in our Warmaster campaign ;)
P.S.:
I´m still convinced that the Screaming Bell is to powerfull !!!
-
NB, screaming bell is one per army: raising the question, up to what point-level is it unbalanced?
-
NB, screaming bell is one per army: raising the question, up to what point-level is it unbalanced?
As it stand right now I would say all the way to app 3k on the table. Remember that the Ratz can move in HUGE brigades, I have not done the excersize yet, but my guess is that MOST units, if not all, in a 3000 pts game with a legal armylist that maximizes breakpoint COULD be commanded with the Bell's bonus.
It is not as much the Skaven command bonus that seems to be an issue (but beware those players that use it to get a Ld 10 general --> Grey Seer General does NOT get the bonus !). There are several ways that things could be brought a bit more into balance:
1 - only apply the Skaven command bonus WHEN the Bell is used as mount for the Skaven General
2 - only apply the Opponent command penealty WHEN the Bell is used as mount for the Skaven General
Both options mean NO second front with the LD 9 general bringing up more troops and the General does not get to move freely over the board to command what is needed
3 - have the Skaven player start with the Bell in Skaven "command" mode, but allow him to switch "modes" during the Shooting/Casting phase of his turn, either with or without rolling for it (on 4+ ??)
or for even more random fun
4 - at the start of each turn roll a d6, the result determines the actual range for that turn: 1 - 10 cm, 2-3 - 20 cm, 4-6 30 cm.
Personaly I would not mind to play option 4, but I think the realy challenge would be playing option 1/2
BTW, for those chasing mice, note that Claus very accuRATly describes the way to take the ratz down (that is, other then sending for the Pied Piper)
-
Yes, Claus found a way. But not every army nor every terrain will allow such a game.
Claus spent some thoughts on that I guess, but not before the whole issue was brought up first.
Some times it needs stepping stones ...
-
So how does that mounting thing work?
The bell moves with a brigade ... so if I put it in the "main brigade" of the army I always have the general on the bell, which is moving in the brigade and therefore never gets out of the 20cm?
???
-
Yup 8)
Now there should be SOME downside to that indeed..... ow... there is ... killing the bell kills the General --> game over.
And believe me, the bell IS killable
also, if you manage to strand the bell then the general cant move ;D
-
Well, some Skaven players never even played the Bell cause of its cost. So they would not miss it, would they?
Serious. I don't think Skaven need a "Command-Enhancer". Maybe they would have needed it with their old Advance Rule. But with that restriction gone and with their special Brigade rule they will even move more troops with one command than any other army! And even with a missed command - they keep together!
The only real danger is that someone crashes into their ranks and splits them up. Even that is hard with 4 or 5 ranks of rats. I think the most dangerous foe is the good old cannon and the fireball-spell.
I still see, that it could be important for Skaven to keep the enemy from attacking first. So why not give them the "Anger of the God" spell (one of the most important meta-spells imo)? And take away the Plague ie? (I find it strange for an army to have two different damage spells anyway as they could use both on one unit...)
There must be something else interesting that the Bell could do... What about every unit touching it has terror? Would'nt that fit to the fluff? And sounds useful... Points cost got to be reduced though.
Greetings,
Gerald
-
Wasn't the bell originally just a mount for the general?
If so why was it changed and how did it get through the playtest phase?
-
Wasn't the bell originally just a mount for the general?
If so why was it changed and how did it get through the playtest phase?
Changes in Skaven were mostly done "in house" as was playtesting at that time. To be honnest, I played a LOT of Skaven games too, but I would (almost) never take the bell. Which was partly due to the fact that I did not like the original rules, did not like cost4value and, maybe strangely most importantly.... I got my Bell from the late Steve Hambrook, but without the actual Bell to put inside.... and due to circumstances, I never got that missing piece
Back to the issues at hand.....
I would not mind putting the general up and thus negotiating the outside 20 cm penealty IF the general needs to stay up and this thus adds extra vulnerability, and the risk of being stranded if the Bell looses contact with its "pushers" <-- I think we DO need to define how this should be "configured". Personaly I wont put the general on anyway, but I can see people who will, AND I can see plenty of countermeasures
The anti-terror effect of the Bell on skaven units in contact with is fine with me, and I did earlier give suggestions how the command-range issue might be adressed.
Remember we have facilities for reporting battles around and when we can find consensus on what version to test, give it a spin and find a communialy acceptable sollution.
-
As you all know I don't see the bell as the only problem.
Imo Skaven should be changed in a package. As they have standard advancing rules now they should also cost standard points. Now Skaven have an even higher breakpoint (I'd say +2 average) than they should have (and need).
There is a basic decision to make:
1) Should Skaven get their old Advance-Restriction back? (Means they are only allowed to do an Advance Move if they destroyed their opponent in the first round of combat). Then their pricing is perfectly ok I think.
2) Should Skaven have the possibility to advance as any other army has too? Then the pricing (of a lot of units) should be changed.
Opinions?
-
As you all know I don't see the bell as the only problem.
Imo Skaven should be changed in a package. As they have standard advancing rules now they should also cost standard points. Now Skaven have an even higher breakpoint (I'd say +2 average) than they should have (and need).
There is a basic decision to make:
1) Should Skaven get their old Advance-Restriction back? (Means they are only allowed to do an Advance Move if they destroyed their opponent in the first round of combat). Then their pricing is perfectly ok I think.
2) Should Skaven have the possibility to advance as any other army has too? Then the pricing (of a lot of units) should be changed.
Opinions?
Well, I have one simple one .... with a lot of skaven players having invested into buying enough units to field their armies, making the unit cost higher, and thus invalidating a lot of their units does not sound as a good idea (neekneek). LOL..... remember I even forgot to play the Advance rules anyway, so going back to the old rule (which IIRC also included a fall-back behind the original fights line of contact sounds fine with me ...
-
As you all know I don't see the bell as the only problem.
Imo Skaven should be changed in a package. As they have standard advancing rules now they should also cost standard points. Now Skaven have an even higher breakpoint (I'd say +2 average) than they should have (and need).
There is a basic decision to make:
1) Should Skaven get their old Advance-Restriction back? (Means they are only allowed to do an Advance Move if they destroyed their opponent in the first round of combat). Then their pricing is perfectly ok I think.
2) Should Skaven have the possibility to advance as any other army has too? Then the pricing (of a lot of units) should be changed.
Opinions?
Huh? Standard advancing rules _now_? Did I miss an army list update?
-
I guess not :).
Originally the Skaven army was designed with the rule that they could not advance after destroying an enemy - only if they destroyed him in the first round of combat.
Later on someone decided to leave that rule away obviously not being aware that there is a "rat-tail" of other things linked with that rule. That's probably the army list you got to know.
Leaving that rule away changed the balance of Skaven a lot imo.
Greetings,
Gerald
-
I tried a game against Dark Elves without Advance move (after longer CCs) and have to say it really hurts.
In my opinion the "old advance move skaven rule" is quite good here. Rather better than making the units more expensive :(
Greetings
Peter