Hello,Important distinction: you have a brigade of Chaos Warriors in front of Chaos Marauders. These are ordered (with one "brigade" order) to charge into a unit of goblins, supported by another unit of goblins.
I have some doubts and I will try to explain to you with an example.
two brigades. The attacker brigades is composed by chaos warriors supported by chaos marauders
The defender is composed by night goblins supported by bofa goblins.
Then chaos charge and make a battleline covering all the front.Assuming that positioning dont "mix it up", your "central stand" of Chaos Warriors centre on the goblins and the others are positioned next to it on both sides. And dont forget ! the poor Gobs get a Stand&Shoot DURING that movement.
Roll the dice and chaos win making 6 hits and forcing the goblins to retreat 4 cm. Chaos player decide to pursuit.OK, I will take the above at face value, but for the sake of argument I will spell this out.
NOTE: in this case the defending player has various options.
Remember that you remove ANY stands from the unit in the sequence you want, so you can "guide" the attacker where he does least harm (or when you can get at him).
Also remember that you have the option to "refuse to make way", sacrificing the last stand of gobs, and forcing the Chaos player to "use up" his Advance move.
And remember that the "supporting" unit of gobs must move out of the way in the "shortest" possible distance, which in the above case dont nescecarily mean they need to go back ! the COULD slide to the side.
1) How is the new battle line? all chaos warriors fighting with night goblins central base (a) or chaos warriors advance to enter in combat with bofa goblins too(b) ?Assuming the Goblin player removes the two stands on the flanks and keep the middle one, and makes way with the second unit.
If b is correct. Did it means that central night goblin is flanked and also it is flanking chaos warriors?
(I don't know how to insert images so I'll try to make a scheme)
first round: M M M M marauderYou are correct to assume that the Marauders can NOT move along on the pursuit!.
W W W W Chaos warrior
N N N N night goblin
G G G G bofa goblin
take casualities and retreat:
M M M
W W W
N
G G G
Possibility a)
M M M
W W W
N
G G G
Possibility b)
M M M
W
WNW
G GG
2) When the first round of combat chaos marauder are supporting. Can they pursuit because they are part of the combat?
Thanks in advance, I hope I have explain myself
COMBAT RESOLUTION: Chaos (6 + 3 support) = 9 vs Gobs (0 + 1 support <-- the lost stands cant claim support) = 8. So the goblins need to move back 8 cm
Remember that you remove ANY stands from the unit in the sequence you want, so you can "guide" the attacker where he does least harm (or when you can get at him).
After the goblins have moved, forcing the 2d unit of goblins to "make way" (and dont forget to roll for BOTH units to check for confusion !!) ).
Anyway your comments are very interesting. We are not playing our games with some things as you say, maybe we are not using the rules properly:This is one of the areas of debate for a potential rules change, but as things stand at the moment ONLY stands that remain on table can claim support.QuoteCOMBAT RESOLUTION: Chaos (6 + 3 support) = 9 vs Gobs (0 + 1 support <-- the lost stands cant claim support) = 8. So the goblins need to move back 8 cm
In my opinion, they should benefit from support as they all were in the combat. As they can attack they should have the benefit of being supported. Is that wrong?
Nope, rule did not change. But read it this way: you can NOT take away a stand which should lead to breaking the unit's formation. So you could not start taking away the middle stand. However, all actions are done PER STAND. In other words, when you remove the first stand from either side of the unit, you are left with a 2-stand unit, which allows you to take away either stand.QuoteRemember that you remove ANY stands from the unit in the sequence you want, so you can "guide" the attacker where he does least harm (or when you can get at him).
From Warmaster rules page 38: "stands are always removed from the edge of the unit's formation, never from the middle but otherway the player can choose which stands to remove" Has the rule changed?
Most definitly so !!QuoteAfter the goblins have moved, forcing the 2d unit of goblins to "make way" (and dont forget to roll for BOTH units to check for confusion !!) ).
The one engaged in combat also checks for confusion?
XXX |
YYY |
ZZZ V
XXX | 1 time for pushing Y
YYY | 1 time for being pushed by X, and then once more for pushing Y
ZZZ V 1 time for being pushed by Y
But for the chaos warriors it is better to get into contact with the second unit (aka maximize frontage on the gobbos flank) because he would get them without using his advance move, wouldnt he?
So he would loose his pursuit bonus by being flanked but its not even necessary to allocate attacks against the second unit because he will get the pursuit bonus in the next combat round after the last stand of the first unit has been removed. This of course only will only work well with the chaoswarrior-goblins combination with equal infantry units it would be risky.He still gets pursuitbonus IF allocating attacks on the original unit's stand(s), just not when allocating attacks on a freshly accidental contact.
Would it be possible to move one of the flanking chaos stands into contact with the second gobbo unit and place the second flanking stand only into contact with the remaining goblin stand? So he would have contact with both units but only one counting as flanked!?
But for the chaos warriors it is better to get into contact with the second unit (aka maximize frontage on the gobbos flank) because he would get them without using his advance move, wouldnt he?
Coming into option that one stand only is flanked. This is very risky:The above is a VERY valid point !!! EVEN if you are attacking with Chaos Warriors
Warriors player may wound goblins maximum 6 times. While three wounds are almost certain (to a lone stand), three remainng to fresh unit are rather disputable: only 3 atacks from flank to front. So lets consider only 1 is scored.
It means 4 wounds to goblins. And Gobbos will strike back with 1+4 attacks i.e ~1 wound and 1 supporting stands. Close to a draw.
Rmember that you cannot inflict more wounds than the remaining stand(s) actually have (or has). So the attacking power of two Warrior stands is very much lost in this case.
Lex - what about stand-and-shoot here? No s-t-s while charged accidentally? I don't remeber at the moment...No stand&shoot on accidental contact. And of course the gobs moved to make way, so they would loose defensive bonuses if they had those....
Quote:
Once stands that can pursue directly
forward have done so, other stands from the
same unit are also moved into edge contact.
This includes stands that would only contact
corner-to-corner by moving directly forward,
as well as stands that would not contact at
all. Where possible, these stands must also
be positioned against the same enemy unit
as stands that have already pursued directly
forward. Pursuing stands must be
positioned so that their front edge contacts
at least part of the edge of a retreating stand
where possible – but note that there is no
obligation to maximise frontage as there is
during a charge. See Diagrams 42.3 & 42.4
We interpret this: as long as a part of the front edge (front corner) of the second and third stand comes into contact with any part of the retreating unit, it is ok.
Or more directly: Second and third stand can move any way they like as long as they stay in formation and try to contact pursued unit where possible.
A halberdiers unit brigaded to knights unit (red one) attack to a brigade of two halberdiers units (A and B blues), one of them supporting the other. (see scheme)
Guys, there is no discussion about this case. Lex is right.
Alright.
So, why is it ok to charge corner to corner (second and third stand) but not when pursuing? To me this is very odd.
Hmm well i did not read it all, but i have to kind of disagree!
According to the "rules-update-pdf" by GW, corner-to-corner contact is only prohibited, if it is the only type of contact a pursuing unit can establish. So basically the rules are the same as they are for moving chargers.
The charge shown above is impossible for knights bkz the charge with corner-to-corner contact only is not allowed.
I prefer classic charging rules - where both possible charges may be made to the flank (except the 1st charger will block the way for the 2nd)
The corner to corner charge is wrong, but either the eagles or elf spear 1 can flank them even if they are not in the 45° because the chaos warriors front is fully covered.
Elf spear 1 and eagles (figure 1) just eliminate a marauder unit and they are allow to advance. That is a new charge. Both of them can see the chaos warriors and both of them can not flank them because they are over the 45º lateral sector.