Specialist Arms Forum
Specialist Games General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cneo on July 01, 2015, 02:29:55 PM
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Hi,
Destroyed by GW, forgotten, no more new miniatures or existing ranges, no more armies or books, the new game is more a boardgame than a wargame... :o
Should we include a subforum for our dear Warhammer Fantasy Battles? Another murderer in GW history perhaps the biggest one. ::)
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Since I'm sure, a lot of WFB player will dump their collection ;), what edition is considered the best?
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For a minute, I was going to move this to the technical issues board, but having read your post again, I don't think that you're being serious, so I'll leave it here ;).
Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer 40,000 have both declined in my opinion. They're now just way too big, and are trying to mimic Warmaster and Epic sized games with inappropriate model sizes and poorly constructed rules. It's a shame, as I used to like elements of both games, but I'm not interested in playing either of them any more.
It does seem, however, that quite a few people still like playing GW's core games, so let's leave them to enjoy the game, while we focus on the genuine specialist games :).
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For a minute, I was going to move this to the technical issues board, but having read your post again, I don't think that you're being serious, so I'll leave it here ;).
Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer 40,000 have both declined in my opinion. They're now just way too big, and are trying to mimic Warmaster and Epic sized games with inappropriate model sizes and poorly constructed rules. It's a shame, as I used to like elements of both games, but I'm not interested in playing either of them any more.
It does seem, however, that quite a few people still like playing GW's core games, so let's leave them to enjoy the game, while we focus on the genuine specialist games :).
/agree man ;)
Both games are unbalanced and hard to play...The curiosity is that I only play the games in their super-size version... Apocalypse and Storm of Magic, I think they're really funny to play.
The standard games...I haven't played since two editions away. :o
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I was flopping back and forth between the games as each new ruleset was released- by comparison, the older game was always better, even if that wasn't saying much.
Current 40k is horrendous without some really good friends agreeing to house rules. The new 'Age of Sigmar' doesn't even look like it'll be able to achieve that.
There's a great thread of 'WTF?' rules that's appeared over on Warseer- examples include units not getting any cover benefit from being behind a wall, only gaining cover if they stand on top of a wall ;D :P
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Huhuhu i like the humour of puting Battle in the specialist games forum ;)
I'm really cautious with the futur of this age of sigmar game... Let's see if it really survives more than one or two years.
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I dont follow the core lines..... Can someone tell me what the changes are/whats going on with it? Last I heard, GW were cutting back the number of playable races in WHFB, but thats all I know.
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There's nothing concrete at the moment, just rumors. We'll have to see what the 11th brings, if that's the date to be believed.
If AoS ends up being a altenatjng activation skirmish I'd be intereated. Wrath of Kings has been fun and I have some old 5e Lizardmen that would be fun to bring out.
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The short version:
BACKGROUND
If you remember the 'Storm of Chaos' campaign, forget that. Time was wound back, and that never happened. I'm quite serious about that- it simply never happened.
At the end of 8th edition, Games Workshop released a series of 'End Times' books, in which Chaos (led by Archaon) invaded the world (aka the Storm of Chaos, Mk II).
There's lots of politics, alliances, etc. and plenty of just straight stupid crap. Nagash is back, Tyrion dies, Tyrion comes back to life, Ulthuan sinks, Tilea, Estalia, Bretonnia and the Empire are all wiped out- or at least every major city is. Many, many major characters die- including Orion, Ariel, the Lady of the Lake, the king of Bretonnia, Teclis, and basically every single 'minor' character (and yes, many gods die too). The Dark Elves, High Elves and Wood Elves all ally, becoming one friendly bunch all under the rulership of Malekith, while living in Athel Loren. If you're even vaguely aware of the Elven history that one really hurts the head.
This could have been very cool and climactic, but they completely Games Workshoped it, and turned it into a massive, rage-inducing clusterfrick. Multiple books were released- rule books and fluff books- that were filled with contradictions. Many major characters died 'off screen', being just a part of a footnote in some message bearer's lines, and things like that. Many races had almost no showing- for example, Dwarfs basically never left their holds. Lizardmen flew off into space before things got too hot (not kidding), and Bretonnia was simply everyone's punching bag- they did nothing but die. Khemri was also wiped out by Nagash, single handedly. He then took all of the undead from Nehekhara and the rest of the old world to go fight Chaos.
There was one example of an elf, who was turned into a vampire. She was later redeemed by an Elven god. Tyrion then killed her for being a vampire. Why? The author of the book where she died simply hadn't read the earlier book where she was redeemed. There was no communication among authors, and it showed horribly.
The 8 winds of magic were bound into 8 mortals (or semi-mortals), to try and fight the Chaos Gods. This changes a bit as characters die, but from memory the 8 characters are: Nagash, Tyrion (after he's brought back to life), Teclis, the Everqueen, Malekith (elves were very over-represented), Karl Franz, Grimgor Ironhide and Balthazar Gelt- an ex-Grand Theogenist of the Empire.
The very end to this nonsense is that another warp gate was found in the Empire, opened by Archaon, and the entire world was destroyed. Again, not kidding. Everything. Dies.
The most brilliant part of all of this: It's stated at the end, that with their victory, the Chaos Gods lose interest and turn their backs on what was the world. That's a real sense of achievement for both sides there, when the victor doesn't even care.
NOW
Though not all details are known, Age of Sigmar is set in a new world. Don't know where it came from, but it's basically a chaos-covered daemon world. Somehow the 8 winds of magic survived, and those who were tied to them come back to life as gods of these little bubble-realms. Karl Franz is Sigmar now. Now those forces are sallying out, trying to kill Chaos and claim more territory. No idea why really- there doesn't seem to be an end goal yet (they can probably never beat Chaos).
RULES
On the positive side, the Age of Sigmar rules, and updates to use all current models in the game, are free. They'll be up on the GW site this Saturday.
The negative side- everything else.
The rules are a 4 page pamphlet. The holes are gapingly obvious and horrible. Even two people who want to play a proper game are going to encounter bits they struggle with. Issue #1 is that there is no balancing system, at all. No points, no force limits- it literally tells you to place as many models as you want, of whatever type you want (mix and match armies freely), until you want to stop or your deployment zone is full.
Tactics and strategy seem to be lost altogether- there's no flanking, no charge bonuses- nothing at all to encourage careful manouvering. Models have 4 stats- Movement, Bravery, Armour, and Wounds (2 or more wounds is now common). Weapons have stats as well- Attacks, To-hit, to-wound (both of these are set values, regardless of opponent), Rend (a penalty to the enemy's save) and Damage (multiple-wound weapons are also now common).
Models are now all on round bases- not that it matters. Bases are irrelevant, as all measurements are made to and from the models themselves. Any part of the model- so you can kill a pikeman by attacking the tip of his pike.
Models are also much larger- one 'new race', commonly called 'Sigmarines', are basically angels of Sigmar. They are space marines, in almost all ways- including looks. They stand about as high as an Ogre.
One of the big aims is to make things copywrightable. Forget anything that looks like Bretonnia or the Empire- they're too historical. All new models will look 'unique', and over-the-top. Names have also changed- No more Orcs, Goblins, Elves, Dwarves- now they are 'Orroks', 'Grots', Aelfs' and 'Steamhead Duardins' (yep, poor Dwarves).
In short, did you like Warhammer Fantasy Battles?
Too bad. It's dead, and its ashes have been desecrated by this monstrosity that's barely even playable.
There's nothing concrete at the moment, just rumors.
Sorry Dave, but rumours no more. I can provide links to the 'full rules' (hah!) if it's allowed, and anyone wants.
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Basically it's a complete "re-boot" of the game. GW killed 90%+ of its IP!
They want to make it more like WH40K apparently. Round bases, simpler, smaller games with more 'massive' miniatures. They will sell optional rules to scale up the games in the future (I think that WHFB sized games will be seen as 'apocalypse' type games.
GW have given out some weasel words about allowing all the current ranges and races in the new rules and they will give some basic stats but the consensus seems to be that as races are never mentioned again and never supported, they will inevitably 'die out' and be out nerfed by the newer, more powerful races as time goes on.
Last chance to finish off your armies and buy all the cards and rules for your game.
Me, I got off that treadmill 2 or 3 editions back and no longer own any WHFB figures, except for what I kept for my RPG games collection.
Its all a bit sad really.
Dave
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Wow.... *shakes head* I have never really been a FHFB player at all, but if I was I am sure that all of this would have very quickly and completely pushed me out of the game forever. The last I heard was that the number of playale races was being downsized, but it was likely that all minis would appear somewhere so you could still use them - for example all the Elves into a single force which could use any Elf mini.
@Geep - I have to admit that if I didnt know better I would assume that your synopsis was a parody. I had to read it twice because my brain kept filling in the inconsistencies that were there but not accepted. For example, I got to the end of th ebit about Elves and wondered where the Dark Elves were left now, then went back and read, and as a fan of the Dark Elves in.... 7th edition (?) I couldnt believe it. That throws out their entire character in a footnote.
And, the Lizardmen.... went.... into space? Really?
And, no points values, army lists or actual tactics? The entire strength of WHFB was that even the 40K players admitted that it was a more tactical game. It feels like GW have taken out and thrown away the core positive part of WHFB - the tactical side and character - in an attempt to graft on the good bits of 40K.... except those good bits are the science fiction side which is more popular these days in the wake of Star Wars, etc and CANT be moved into WHFB.
I am usually pretty tolerant of GW - and understand their view even when I dont agree with it, but these all sounds horrible! I can predict a pretty large u-turn in about 18 months as sales drop through the floor and GW bring in the core parts of the WHFB rules and background in an attempt to persuade old players back. And even the names are being changed.
Yeah, this is a way more serious and significant change than I was expecting and is pretty much unrecognisable as WHFB in any previous form. Its simply not WHFB any more and the game does seem to be very dead.
Urgh. I never even liked the game and even I am mourning its passing.
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...I can predict a pretty large u-turn in about 18 months as sales drop through the floor and GW bring in the core parts of the WHFB rules and background...
And so Age of Sigmar 2nd edition is born, MUCH better than the first edition, with BIGGER(cough and considerably more expensive cough) figures. Dig VERY deep into your pockets GW customers, 'cos they've got a cunning plan to fleece you of your hard-earned? It can't fail, can it? Errrm...
I think I'll pass on that "generous" offer, if that's OK?
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@Geep - I have to admit that if I didnt know better I would assume that your synopsis was a parody. I had to read it twice because my brain kept filling in the inconsistencies that were there but not accepted. For example, I got to the end of th ebit about Elves and wondered where the Dark Elves were left now, then went back and read, and as a fan of the Dark Elves in.... 7th edition (?) I couldnt believe it. That throws out their entire character in a footnote.
Rumours of what was in the End Times books leaked way before they came out, and no one believed it :P
There's all sorts of brilliantly rage inducing things. I'm a Wood Elf/ Orc player mainly, and my opponent likes Bretonnians. Main things I hated were:
Bretonnia is being ripped apart. Skaven, Beastmen and Undead have laid waste to all major cities bar one or two. The king is missing, presumed dead. Suddenly, in Bretonnia's hour of need, the Green Knight appears and reveals himself to be Gilles le Breton (founder of Bretonnia, kept alive by the Lady of the Lake). He then does nothing. The Bretonnians do nothing. He just sits on his backside and Bretonnia dies.
The Lady of the Lake poisons Ariel, the Wood Elf demi-god. Ariel dies, not having lifted a finger in the climactic end-of-world events. Orion (another demi-god, Ariel's partner) gets angry and heads over to Ulthuan, where he is killed by Tyrion. In return, he managed to give Tyrion a scratch (yay... that's fearsome...).
The Lady of the Lake reveals herself as Lilith, the Elven goddess. She decides to let Bretonnia know that she actually created the entire realm, and shaped its ways, purely to be a barrier protecting Athel Loren. She has no actual care for the humans, and abandons them once the elves start to move out.
Morgianna Le Fey, the handmaiden of the Lady of the Lake, is kidnapped by Drycha (Wood Elf dryad), sold to a von Carstein, and turned into a vampire. She's then killed by Arkhan to help summon Nagash. The Lady of the Lake probably could have saved her, but doesn't feel any need to.
Teclis hatches a plan to have Tyrion's daughter kidnapped, and she is also sacrificed in order to summon Nagash.
The unification of all of the elves is pretty much comical in its horror. Malekith uproots ALL dark elves to invade Ulthuan, as a massive Chaos horde is about to take out all of Naggaroth. Seeing no hope, Tyrion draws the sword of Khaine, and so becomes cursed. He starts killing everything.
The Everqueen and Teclis decide to abandon him, and go cozy up to Malekith, declaring Malekith Phoenix King. Morathi decides to get in on the nonsense, and goes to join Tyrion in destroying everything. Malekith eventually makes it to the Flame of Asuryan, and we learn a fun 'fact'- Malekith was always supposed to be Phoenix King. The entire decline of the elves was Asuryan's curse for Malekith not being the Phoenix King. The whole 'horrible burning death' thing that Malekith endured when he was first crowned Phoenix King was just Asuryan's 'test'- by saving his own life he doomed the elves.
The Everqueen heads to Athel Loren, gathers up the Wood Elves, and brings them over to fight for Malekith- because hey, why not, their leader-gods just died, so who else will they listen to?
In the big inter-elf fight, some Elves become their gods (not just aspects of them), and this is how all of the Elven gods die.
Ulthuan sinks, all remaining elves declare that they had a good time but that they'll stop killing each other now, and they get magically teleported to Athel Loren (literally magically teleported). Athel Loren doesn't seem to care at all about all of these intruders.
Tyrion died, but is resurrected with no real harm done- except that Khaine (who Tyrion became) is dead forever.
Malekith and the Everqueen then get married, Tyrion and all the elves live happily ever after (until the world does some exploding).
There is some potential for excellently written story in the above- it doesn't happen. The plots are bad and get jerked back and forth by various authors, and the writing is often just sloppy. I tended to find myself wanting the characters to die because they were being so damn stupid.
And, the Lizardmen.... went.... into space? Really?
Yep, turns out the pyramids were actually space ships, or some such nonsense. And as is well known in Lizardmen background, when the great wars against Chaos are on, the Lizardmen- the fighting force of the Old Ones that have played a pivotal (if often unknown) role against Chaos... flee.
More specific boxed game details- The rules (all 4 pages of them) will be free online. A conversion sheet for every current model goes free online too (that's all happening this Saturday). From now on, a model's rules will only be in its box- there are no more books. Buy what boxes you want- that's your army. No limits at all.
Despite this, the boxed game is still 100 Euros, $200AU or whatever currencies lie between.
Fairly reliable sources say that this is GW's last stab at Fantasy, and that if it fails they'll probably cut all Fantasy ties.
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Fairly reliable sources say that this is GW's last stab at Fantasy, and that if it fails they'll probably cut all Fantasy ties.
I have to ask, does this include Warmaster?
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GW cut that cord years ago.
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I have been following rumours and such for a good while and I must say my small hope of something actually cool coming out of all this has been grinded to dust. Rules seems to be bad & uninteresting, fluff is silly and infantile. "Sigmarines" is a as hilarious as it is fitting description of the models shown and I cant see me use them for anything except 40kconversions wich is a game I do t play anyways... It's all just sad really...
But now that GW has left the old world and all of its races behind - Does this mean that their old IP will be less protected and open for others to do stuff with?
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That is interesting... GW is going to liberate IP?
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As Dave says, GW no longer have anything to do with Warmaster. That's my main positive with all of this- I think Warmaster split from GW when Fantasy was at its peak. I'm certainly happy they never attempted some 'End Times' Warmaster nonsense.
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That is interesting... GW is going to liberate IP?
It will be interesting to see if they do. I am thinking this should open up for other manufacturers to create miniatures with style similar or even same as whfb-styled ones... But I dont know. They will probably hold on to it for a good while. I have no clue how IP-laws works...
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I am not sure that its going to make a massive difference in the IP of things, to be honest. The terms were all pretty generic, as were the designs, and that seems to be the driving force behind the rebranding. You could always create Orcs and Elves. These are not GW property. So, leaving them behind doesnt really change anything.
On top of this, and bear in mind that this is all new to me, I wouldnt be surprised to see some rpetty radical redesigns of the current that does make the cut. In order to protect their designs, GW will need to make them much more distinct, and the current Orc/Elf/etc models are simply not different enough from public domain concepts to be protectable.
I would expect AoS minis to look radically different in 24 months, and almost unrecognisable from the current crop.
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Was it really going that bad for whfb since it was in such dire need of a major reinvention? ???
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The complete overhaul of looks (and names) that Cybershadow mentions is exactly the plan. Forget your own conceptions of Warhammer races- it's all going out the window so that GW can stamp it as their IP.
Was it really going that bad for whfb since it was in such dire need of a major reinvention?
From all reports, it wasn't doing terribly, but it was doing much worse than 40k and popularity was slipping over time. The reasons should be obvious- troop points have been cut, common game size increased, models per box cut and total cost of boxes increased- to the point where it's almost impossible to actually get into the game anymore (unless you're very wealthy). As an example- infantry blocks of 30 are pretty standard in 8th edition. Empire Greatswords cost $75AU per box, last I saw, with 10 models per box. So that's $225AU to add one unit to your army. The rarest Warmaster models are cheap by comparison ;D That's ignoring the assembly time, painting time, and all costs associated with that.
That's just one problem, not even considering the way the rules are going- which is bad.
Introducing a small, skirmish Fantasy game (like Mordheim) that's easy to get into would have been a great move. GW saw this, but unfortunately, being GW, they can't do anything normal to address their game problems. I don't know why, their business practices consistently leave me flabbergasted. It's clear that they've glanced at the Malifaux, Kings of War and all of the other competition and stolen bits and pieces from each- unfortunately the combining and implementation of these ideas is beyond half-ar$3d.
And so we have Age of Sigmar. It's a middle finger to the veterans- GW doesn't care about them. The aim is to draw in new blood, with a small, simple, skirmish game, that will probably have its rules ramped up to allow for proper Warhammer size battles at some point in the future.
If it was done well, I'd be all for it- but it's awful. If they didn't destroy the entirety of the Old World to do it, I'd also be happier- but they must re-invent the world in order to slap their IP all over it.
For those with a desire to stare into the horse's mouth:
Link removed, as we ought not to post links to scans from White Dwarf to be on the safe side :) - Iris.
(apologies if that link is against forum rules, but this is all going free on the website soon anyway)
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I can predict a pretty large u-turn in about 18 months as sales drop through the floor and GW bring in the core parts of the WHFB rules and background in an attempt to persuade old players back. And even the names are being changed.
Unfortunatly, the apparent reason behind this radical redesign of everything to do with GWs fantasy franchise was that WFB was under performing and sales were steadily dropping. I predict if and when Age of Sigma fails, GW will simply drop any fantasy version of their products and concentrate solely on 40K. :(
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For anyone who wants official copies of this trainwreck:
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/age-of-sigmar-compendiums (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/age-of-sigmar-compendiums)
Many rules have special activation requirments- and special describes them perfectly. Examples include:
-Rolling dice out of a chalice, while loudly shouting 'For the Lady!'
-Dancing as you roll the dice- extra benefits if you can get your opponent to dance as well.
-Loudly issuing an Orcish challenge
-Screaming 'Waaagh!!!'
-Wearing a hoodie
-Winning a starting contest with your opponent
-Having a better beard than your opponent
-Having a better moustache than your opponent
-Making eye contact with your opponent
-Avoiding eye contact with your opponent
... the list goes on.
I am not making this up. Read the army 'Battlescrolls' in the above link- all of the above are requirements to activate special rules.
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There don't seem to be any obvious limits on army composition, so one player brings 20 giants to the table and the other player brings 20 snotlings. Really? Game balance?
It would be interesting to visit my local GW shop today and make "helpful" comments to the staff as they try to convince punters that this is THE BEST THING EVER but sadly I've got better things to do* :( ;)
*cutting my toe nails, washing the car, watching some paint dry...
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:-X
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Still, look on the bright side, it leaves us veterans increasingly free to do what we want with the old Warmaster universe! :)
My games will always be set just before all the end times nonsense started.
Dave
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How do you even play now?
How do i balance the games if there is no limits in points, models or any thing? ???
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It's a stretch to call them "rules". I wonder what will be happening at Adepticon WFB-wise now?
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How do you even play now?
How do i balance the games if there is no limits in points, models or any thing? ???
Just so long as you throw lots of money in GW's direction, what do they care?
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The complete overhaul of looks (and names) that Cybershadow mentions is exactly the plan. Forget your own conceptions of Warhammer races- it's all going out the window so that GW can stamp it as their IP.
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Warhammer
Go to race, and check out the new names.
Aelf
Beastman
Daemon
Duardin
Grot
Human
Mortal
Mummy
Ogor
Orruk
Seraphon
Skaven
Skeleton
Sylvaneth
Troggoth
Vampire
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It is wierd, now there is a complete reboot of old world, and at the same time Total war saga will launch a game in the old setting (As far as I know). Ironical
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Geep's take on all this is 100% accurate, it's all very odd. Tonnes of GW apologists in comments going "Why are you whining, this is what you wanted" in the most disingenuous way.
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So I've had an unpainted skaven army sat on my shelves for quite a while. I've been very close to flogging it - the system just seemed so awful compared to epic and warmaster. With this I'm actually tempted to keep it. I don't really know what that says?! It does seem like a reasonable beer and pretzel game, that said, they will have pissed a lot of people off with it. Basically, if I want tactics and strategy I've got warmaster and epic - if I want something else I may well try this. It is truly appalling what they've done to the background though.
Maybe they've finally done the right thing and not pretended to be able to do balance or competition in any meaningful way?
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Hopefully WFB is going in this direction:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=129642
So i´d say, topic is correct. ;)
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Sigmarites for warmaster are made by magister millitum :
http://www.magistermilitum.com/era/fantasy.html#order=name&limit=36&p=1&dir=ASC&cat[]=62398
Angels in full metal plate
haha
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Interestingly, there are a few people who are enthusiastic about the new version. I have been talking with a few on Twitter. Largely, it seems that there was a group of people who were on the edge of WHFB, and were already 40K players I think, and who are now looking at the simpler rules and more relaxed attitude of the game and looking to graba few kits, since they can now buy anything that they want without having to worry if it is 'rules legal'.
This is certainly not for me, although I was never a WHFB player either, and I think that it will lose more players than it gains, but it seems that there is a target audience out there, however small or temporary they are. (And, these are people talking about getting into it.... Time will tell if they actually do.)
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For anyone who wants official copies of this trainwreck:
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/age-of-sigmar-compendiums (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/age-of-sigmar-compendiums)
Many rules have special activation requirments- and special describes them perfectly. Examples include:
-Rolling dice out of a chalice, while loudly shouting 'For the Lady!'
-Dancing as you roll the dice- extra benefits if you can get your opponent to dance as well.
-Loudly issuing an Orcish challenge
-Screaming 'Waaagh!!!'
-Wearing a hoodie
-Winning a starting contest with your opponent
-Having a better beard than your opponent
-Having a better moustache than your opponent
-Making eye contact with your opponent
-Avoiding eye contact with your opponent
... the list goes on.
I am not making this up. Read the army 'Battlescrolls' in the above link- all of the above are requirements to activate special rules.
Belated first of April joke?
Long ago I played whfb. And maybe it needed change but this seems... A joke?
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As much as I like BoLS, I am not a fan at all of their YouTube 'reviews'. That said.... AoS run through here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqunT2T6a94 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqunT2T6a94)
I thought that the 96 page book was more rules.... but not so much. Pretty pictures and story stuff. Typical GW.
EDIT - One thing that did jump out at me.... As a combination of measuring from the model itself and not the base (which will at least avoid things like the 40K Terminator issue!), and the bizarre way that the models are cut for the sprues (shoulders and head one piece, front of body one piece, head and back one piece on another model....), it seems like GW are really no longer encouraging conversions. This would be a massive change, as GW always made a big deal about extra parts, poseable kits, variety and options, customisation, etc. But with AoS it seems that the models only go together one way, are not cross compatible with other minis, and actually need to be restricted to the stock poses for the rules to work.
Personally, this might be the biggest change that AoS brings to the table.... and the one that I like the least.
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I like the fact that the rules are short, but I'm not a fan of the lack of originality (copying Kings of War isn't impressive), and I have concerns about the total lack of balance. I don't understand how the game is supposed to work when there's no way within the rules to balance the armies. It doesn't make sense.
GW sewed the seeds of the demise of Fantasy through massive unit sizes and rule changes to force players to build larger and larger regiments if they wanted to be able to win. I agree with earlier remarks that this priced players out of the game, and this is exactly what happened to me.
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Personally I don't think either 40k or fantasy battle have ever been balanced in any meaningful way - at least with this they're not pretending to be able to. I think it looks fine for what it is but it's not for deciding who's "better" at the game.
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and the bizarre way that the models are cut for the sprues (shoulders and head one piece, front of body one piece, head and back one piece on another model....),
Might have missed it, but where did you see that? Might have missed it in the video, as I've no interest in AoS so wasn't wasting 25mins of my life watching a video about it. ;)
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Yes, its in the video. The larger Chaos model (no idea on names or types) appears to be:
- torso back section
- torso front left section
- torso front right section
- head and shoulders section on top to hold it all in place
I like the fact that the rules are short, but I'm not a fan of the lack of originality (copying Kings of War isn't impressive), and I have concerns about the total lack of balance. I don't understand how the game is supposed to work when there's no way within the rules to balance the armies. It doesn't make sense.
I dont know for sure, but it seems to be that the victory conditions are a consequence of how outnumbered you are. Therefore, bringing more troops would allow you to kill more, but put you at a disadvantage to winning the game.... although this is a large handful of speculation.
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The outnumbering rule is one option, while there is also a set of specific bonus points whereby you choose one of those listed in the table, such as kill the opposing wizard, and these can bolster your chances of victory it would seem. It's all pretty unsatisfactory for working out a result in my opinion.
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Ex-GW Employee Tuomas Pirinen has written a very interesting, and I think balanced, set of his thoughts on Age of Sigmar, via Facebook. I am not sure if it is shared, or if everyone here is on Facebook, so I will give an attempted link, and quote his comments here (without his permission).
https://www.facebook.com/DesignbyTuomasPirinen/posts/1620250038223421 (https://www.facebook.com/DesignbyTuomasPirinen/posts/1620250038223421)
WARHAMMER AGE OF SIGMAR -PRODUCT DECONSTRUCTION
OK, there is no way I can skip this, I've been buried with requests to write what I think about the new Warhammer: Age of Sigmar rules. Better get on with it then.
Disclaimer: all the thoughts and opinions here are my own, and do not reflect the official line of Games Workshop in any way, shape or form. I've not worked for GW in over a decade. I reserve the right to be completely wrong about this.
OVERVIEW AND PRODUCT STRATEGY
I've spent a fair amount of time reading the rules for Warhammer: the Age of Sigmar, and the associated War Scrolls, and I've gone through the miniatures range and the background.
Key takeaways: Free, much streamlined rules with visually stunning (if 40K-ish) models that are very expensive speaks to me of a strategy: with these rules, many more new people can try the game and grasp the rules rapidly. Some of those will like the game, and a portion will be able to afford the cost associated with it, and without points limits on the armies, they can spend as little or as much as they wish on the game.
I see that the new miniature range will attract many collectors, and perhaps a fewer gamers -possibly a valid approach, business-wise.
All in all this targets a very particular kind of consumer: Wealthy, social, and focused on collectability of very high-quality designs -very much the Apple tactic. It is a huge gamble to see if this is new direction works. It may also be that a completely new world will allow GW to target a new breed of gamers not exposed to Warhammer before.
To understand the shift in the game it is important to see that many things are in play here that your average hobbyist does not need to care about: the shelf space in the shops (Warhammer always took massive amount of space), the spiralling cost associated with making a physical product, the intense competition from both physical and digital games and the rise of 3D printing in the near future.
MINIATURES
When it comes to miniature sculpting, the rigid unit hierarchy of classic Warhammer limits them, which was always problem when compared to 40K. Thus I am not surprised to see the round bases and much larger models with far more articulation. They are eye-catching and have been made with collectability in mind. They also are so complex that the immediate danger of 3D printing will have been averted at least for a while.
Overall, many of the miniatures are stunningly well made, and I doubt another company can match the sheer intricate detail of these anytime soon. Whatever people like the designs themselves is another matter, but they do that that modern western design vibe. As always, a matter of taste.
THE RULES
The rules themselves have some very nifty ideas, and I am happy that some of the show real creativity and opportunities for interesting situations during game. I do like some of the risk/reward elements such as the charging rules. Some I do not understand, like gaining a major bonus if you won your previous match whenever that may have been. This sets off the game skewered towards one side.
In general, the new rules are streamlined, short, easy-to-absorb and will lead into quite straightforward games. Without tactical maneuvering and flank/back bonuses, the games will most likely become immense killing grounds in the middle, with one side completely wiped out, and the result having a lot to do with luck. I also see some worrying opportunities for cheating, especially with customizing models for extra reach. But I honestly also see a lot of opportunity for fun and tense moments too, in a casual gaming sort of way.
And those dreaded dancing rules... I am personally not a designer that likes to enforce the players to dance, sing or shout during a game: many gamers are introverted, or have disabilities or health conditions that do not allow them to perform a cha-cha-cha moves in the middle of the game. I see the wish to make Warhammer more social, but I would not have gone this way myself: rather, I would have given the players other rewards than game bonuses for awkward behavior.
All in all, the rules are simplified, streamlined, and clearly aimed at getting as many new people as possible to try out the rules.
THE WARHAMMER WORLD
I am of course sad to see Warhammer world go, as it was a labor of love for so many people for so many years, including me. It is one of the most iconic and enduring fantasy worlds ever created. But I do see some of the logic: the Warhammer world was complete, and a low-fantasy world. In order to bring more fantastical creatures and new armies (without making it impossible to fit all the new models into the Warhammer shops) a clean slate was the easy way forward. Personally hard for me to see, but if the gamble pays off it might well be worth it for GW.
I also hazard a guess that there will be a more advanced ruleset for more tactical and strategic players who have outgrown the 4-page rules. I especially think we will see supplements for magic. Without any further rules development, I am not sure about the longevity of the game. Easy-to-pick-up, difficult-to-master is the Holy Grail of the game design, and I am not quite sure these rules are there yet. To keep customers returning, games need long-term engagement, and that requires more depth to delve into. I think we will see this in the coming months.
CLOSING THOUGHTS
As always, I wish GW and its staff the greatest of success -the livelihood of many families depends on It. Many fantastically talented people work at the Studio and beyond whom I respect more than words can say. I see Age of Sigmar as a huge gamble, and it will be interesting to see if it pays off. I also feel that it may have been a gamble they had to take in one form or another. We might see a smaller playerbase, but very lucrative one to emerge from these rules and miniatures.
Lastly, I want to say this. If you enjoy the new rules and models, hold your head up high: every gamer has the right to like whatever they damn well please. But respect the old guard, they built the hobby into what it is today.
If you don't like the rules, I absolutely get it. Please don't take it out on the people that do like them. As gamers we've never had as much choice and quality to choose from. when it comes to our gaming.
Thoughtful critique and discussion wins over bitterness every time.
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It's just a pity the livelihood of many families depends on GW as it feeds the bitterness machine.
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"We might see a smaller playerbase, but very lucrative one to emerge from these rules and miniatures."
Surely a smaller playerbase - presumably buying fewer miniatures because they are so expensive - means less production, leading quickly to redundancies?
Are they attempting to become the Rolls Royce of the gaming world?! Can't see that working out TBH.
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"Easy-to-pick-up, difficult-to-master is the Holy Grail of the game design". That sounds like Warmaster to me!
As for AoS, it does seem to be GW pressing the re-set button after testing to destruction their long-term strategy of seeing how much gamers will actually pay for annually less and less plastic (not metal) per £. I suppose the worse case for them is that if it doesn't work they can just rebrand it again as Warhammer 20k?
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I'm not bending my knee to all the corporate apologists defending it. GW has been stripping itself down - 1 man stores, trashing SG, finecast, raising prices, discontinuing scenery and whole swathes of back catalogue... When all it needed to do was make a FUN GAME.
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"We might see a smaller playerbase, but very lucrative one to emerge from these rules and miniatures."
Surely a smaller playerbase - presumably buying fewer miniatures because they are so expensive - means less production, leading quickly to redundancies?
Are they attempting to become the Rolls Royce of the gaming world?! Can't see that working out TBH.
I think that the article likened them to the 'Apple' of the wargaming world, and I think that this is a very good analogy. Its a business approach where style sells over substance, that reputation rules. And this is something that GW has is spades, both positive and negative.
The point is, if you can make £100 selling 100 items at £1 profit each, or 2 items at £50 each, you pick the latter, because it means less resources, factory time, staff investment, packaging, shipping, etc.
Yes, this strips down the company to a minimum (and also renders it less flexible and able to adapt to a changing market) but from a business sense, this is standard procedure.
I dont have numbers, but I would also assume that a 'collector' customer is far more obsessive than a 'gamer' customer. Collectors (and I speak from experience) buy full sets, have one of everything produced, and cultivate sometimes significant collections. Gamers buy an army, often several, but rely on a variety of range.... Which seems to be something that GW are cutting back on.... Which collectors would be more resistant to than gamers, I think.
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I'm not sure about the Apple likening. To use Apple, you don't need another guy, while playing a game you do. Wargaming is strongly dependent on community. And community is something that GW has corossed out from it's vocabluary, furthermore it was systematically deconstructing it in the name of sale rise. Rols Royce or Apple it may be in the miniature world, but as long as their busyness is based on gaming, they won't succeed with their current attitude. I'm sure that under given circumstances it's a huge gamble they are gonna to lose.
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The point is, if you can make £100 selling 100 items at £1 profit each, or 2 items at £50 each, you pick the latter, because it means less resources, factory time, staff investment, packaging, shipping, etc.
At the cheap end of the market, you can afford to lose 10% of your customers, because having cheap products, it's easier to attract new customers to replace them.
I personally spend £30-odd pounds per month on average - this buys me several Warmaster units from alternate manufacturers. For £30 from GW these days you get a single unit or one large figure. How much younger gamers spend I've no idea but it would take them some time to collect an army. By which time they might have lost interest and moved onto some other activity. Reducing the customer base even further.
Losing 10% of a much smaller customer base is going to be far harder to replace. Standard procedure it may be - but in this market, where there's lots of cheaper competition, it's asking for (even more) trouble.
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It's not as if, unlike Tuomas says, GW are at the forefront of the miniatures market anymore. Yes, they do still produce some nice figures (and some absolute turkeys, lets be honest) but then so do other companies, sometimes smaller, sometimes larger. They definitely don't produce the best models in the world, despite their marketing blurb.
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@ Cybershadow:
on the net there are already conversions on the new models. So different models will not stop people from going wild. ;)
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I ve seen (quite fast) a couple of reports on you tube and what I saw it remainds me to Confrontation. I am talking about the look of the game.
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The more I see this game, the more I think they just marketed it wrong. If it were marketed as its own game (or even just said, it's its own game WFB will still be around), there would have been less of a fallout. Instead, the response they got was "the sky is falling" and people immediately go on the offensive against it because GW hasn't said one way or another what's happening with WFB.
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I think it is pretty clear what is happeing to WHFB.
It just got Specialized! Or do you prefer the term Squatted?
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The more I see this game, the more I think they just marketed it wrong. If it were marketed as its own game (or even just said, it's its own game WFB will still be around), there would have been less of a fallout. Instead, the response they got was "the sky is falling" and people immediately go on the offensive against it because GW hasn't said one way or another what's happening with WFB.
I agree with this, and in a lot of ways this is a real mirror of Epic 3rd Edition. I still think that 3rdEd was a great game and would have done really well. The issue was (in my mind) that it was marketted to Epic players. They didnt like it because it was so different that it changed the theme of the game from second edition, and non-Epic players didnt like it because.... they didnt like Epic.
AoS in a lot of ways is the same thing. WHFB players dont like it, but its not supposed to be aimed at them. But the people who might like it, wont touch it, because its GW and Warhammer.
The real problem here is that this was a marketting and business decision, and nothing in this scenario seems to be as a result of 'the game'. Names are changed to allow IP protection. Races are combined to limit stock on shelves and reduce a massive range. Miniatures are changed to inhibit 3P printing copies. Nothing there says 'this game is important to us as creators', and it shows. This process also meant that GW CANT keep WHFB as it was, alive, because all of those reasons are why they needed to kill it off and press the reset button.
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I agree with the above as well.
The more I read about it and watch battle reports (curiosity always gets me), the more I think it could be quite a good game. It's not, but it could be (the rules holes are awful, but it wouldn't take much tweaking to fix it). The problem is, it's not Warhammer. It's nothing like Warhammer. It doesn't appeal to mass-ranked gamers, it appeals to some 40kers, but It's not marketed to any outside groups- so it can't help but get only a small sliver of the market..
I also think the game needs a DM (if only to curb the most horrible rules), but that's never mentioned.
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Does anyone wonder the reactions of WHF players? We were experiencing the same thing two years ago... but we are just few people compared to the WHF player base.
As for the rules - it's pretty sloppy job. Why they try to translate the rules into Czech when they even can't do it properly anyway? GW has been obviously focused on miniatures, not the rules for quite a time, as they already declared.
But whatever they do, did, or have in mind, you don't treat your old customers like that.