Dwarf "Magic" suggestion

[Guthwine]

We have kind of an ongoing discussion to find ideas to improve dwarfs alittle. (although we agree rarely )

So I came up with an idea to give the dwarves a kind of magic and it all works through the anvil.

My idea: The anvil degrades the runesmith to be a caster who can either dispell like usual or try to bind the magic energy into a rune. (20cm command range)

The real difference is that dwarves cant cast spells on their own, but can only use the power of an enemy spell to support the dwarf units with runes. So the dwarf magic phase is in the enemies magic phase.

The Rune-spells should be supporting spells, like reroll armor save, immunity against terror, extra attacks, reroll missfires, rune of reloading (any missle unit can shot twice but the second time with -1 to hit) and so forth. You get the idea. It should be 2x4+, 1x5+ and 1x6+ "spell".

So if an imperial wizard chooses to cast the weird enchantement for example, the runesmith with anvil can try to dispell as usual on a 4+ or he can choose to bind it in a rune. (in that case its also a 4+ because weird ench. is a 4+, a fireball can only be bound on a 5+ )
If he makes the roll, he can choose to use a rune of same complexity. (one of the 4+ runes in the case of weird enchantment) The effects take place in the enemy magic phase and last till the end of the dwarf players phase. Runemagic cant be dispelled but the runesmiths roll to bind cannot be modified either.
If he fails to bind it, the spell goes through as usual and cannot be dispelled by a second runesmith.

So the idea behind it, is to discourage the enemies of the dwarfs to use magic, because without enemy magic there is no rune magic.

I would be interested in your thoughts about the matter!

[azrael71]

Some nice ideas.
I do tend to steer away from any ideas to modify the existing 'core' lists.
I think the dwarves are already a well balanced list, that can easily hold their own without the need for offensive magic.
Might be an idea to include them in one of the Dwarf variant lists though?

I also think that if you manage to reuse a 6+ spell cast against you, you should be able to pick any spell from the list, as with a 5+ spell any 5+ spells or lower if you get my meaning.

[Angor]

I really like the idea. I would really like to field some kind of proper anvil of doom. It could be a nice way to balance the War of the Beard dwarf list and actually give them some firepower.

I have to say I cant think of any spells that are cast on a 6+ that I wouldnt rather not have the better chance of just regular dispelling.

What if they were to have an artillary piece that can cast spells like a wizard? It would be slow and vulnreble unless guarded, which I think would suit the character of the piece better.

[Lex]

Just to put this on record  , below is the quote from the Warmaster-Trial-Armies Younger Dwarf hold list. This was playtested with good effect and will be less bookkeeping to implement. The Trial Armies are found at: Warmuster

8. Anvil. Alternative Rules. The army can only include a single
Anvil and it is incorporated onto the stand of a Runesmith.
If a Runesmith stand includes the Anvil, he can strike the
Anvil during the Shooting phase of his own turn. The Anvil’s
plangent rune-song fills the Dwarfs with even greater resolve!
Choose one from the following effects:
1) Anti-terror. On a successful roll all Dwarf units within
20cm of the Runesmith are unaffected by terror till the start
of the next Dwarf player’s turn.
2) Extended dispel range. The Runesmith has an effective dispel
range of 80cm till the start of the next Dwarf player’s turn.
3) Boosted dispel power. The Runesmith can opt to add +1
to one dispel roll. Mind you that the Anvil now is no longer
restricted to the once-per-game bonus on dispel, but starts
being “loaded” with that one, which is replaced with one
of the above effects on a successful cast. Roll a D6. On the
score of a 4, 5 or 6 the effect chosen above becomes active and
replaces any current effect. On a roll of less than 4 Anvil has
no effect.
Instead of striking the Anvil, the Dwarf player can opt to
Ground the Anvil. This should be seen as a last resolve option
but provides for a interesting end-game. When the Runesmith
decides to Ground the Anvil he actually fuses the Anvil to
the underground, sending currents of power through the
neighbouring area. This is done in the Shooting phase, similar
to Striking the Anvil. Grounding the Anvil is automatic and
allows the Runesmith to select one of the Striking the Anvil
conditions, without the need to roll for them, which will last
till the end of the game. Grounding the Anvil also grants
the Dwarven army a resolve bonus; for the rest of the game
Dwarven troops ignore the Command modifier for being
under strength. The downside on this is that it turns the Anvil
into a 1 stand unit (normal Dwarf Warrior statistics) which
is joined by the Runesmith and which he can not leave. This
Anvil Stand cannot be moved by any means or effects in the
game, but has gained “objective” status and its destruction is
a game-end condition!
Anvil. Standard Rules. The army can only include a single

[Haranin]

Interesting, but dwarves don't need a boost. 

[Guthwine]

I do tend to steer away from any ideas to modify the existing 'core' lists.

Yeah thats kind of what happened to our discussion although most of us dont like the alternative lists too much. The suggestions that find most supporters in our group are a 5+ for the thunderers (or reduced costs), the possibility of one slayer hero (from the slayer list) and making the gyrocopters like terradons although thats not very original in my mind.

[azrael71]

I agree with Haranin though.
The list isn't broken.
So have it as a alt list or leave as is!

[Getlord]

I didn't want to be the first traditionaly complaining Dwarf here, but now I can say that instead of improving the army take three terrain pieces more and some linear obstacles for your battles.

Suddenly chariots will become worth their points in comaparison to light cavalry, infantry will rock and people start complaining about overpowered Dwarfs...

Strange but true.

[mspaetauf]

Hi!

I have to agree that the dwarven list as such is far from broken, but there are some thinks that are worth thinking about in my opinion.

Among these are:

x) the anvil
x) gyrocopters
x) the fact that the dwarven hero is completely useless (for 10 points more you get a runesmith with exactly the same abilities + dispel)

about the anvil:

the issue here is the same with some units from other armies, for expample the Imperial Steam Tank or Bretonias' Trebuchet.
It is a nice thing, people want to use it, but refrain from doing so because it is not worth the points.

Gyros:
Compared to fliers from other armies, something is very wrong with this thing. I like it, I always use it, but it seems odd to pay 75 points for 3 hits. While I would not want 3 bases to a unit, I'd definitely say this thing has to be a bit more durable. Also you should be able to brigade it, at least with other Gyros.

Apart from that - there are other armies that were not broken at all and did get improvements. Take Bretonians for example. They got fliers, an upgrade to the Trebuchet and a new strange type of artifact (both of which are way overpowered/too cheap in my opinion).

So why not dwarfs as well?

best regards,
M

[Raider4]

Apart from that - there are other armies that were not broken at all and did get improvements. Take Bretonians for example. They got fliers, an upgrade to the Trebuchet and a new strange type of artifact (both of which are way overpowered/too cheap in my opinion).

Ummm, what ?? When did the Brets get flyers and an upgraded Trebuchet?

Cheers, Martyn
--

[mspaetauf]

Follow Lex' link and download the WM Trial Armies supplemental.

Recommended in tournaments, so more or less accepted by the community (from what I've heard - I hardly play vs. Brets)

cheers,

[Lex]

Nobody said any selectors where "wrong" or broken.....

The armies in the trial-army booklet have some additions and it contains some alternate lists, most of the stuff came from discussing player input on the original (and V2) selectors, claiming that stuff WAS wrong. Both V2 errata and the lists in the trial-army booklet WHERE screened by Rick, and we got a formal OK, and he was defiitly happy with some of the proposed additions/alterations.

We are not "Forcing Evolution", by throwing the fish into a swallow pond. The trial-army stuff is TRIAL, and it would be nice if people appriciated the 2+ years in elapsed time (and the roughly 2 years of manhours that when into [discussing issues, selecting options and playtesting]*rinse&repeat) by actualy PLAYING the lists and providing feedback through the form on the Warmuster site (and I DO thank those dedicated few that actualy ARE !!)

The desing of the T-ford was not broken, yet I now ride a hybrid car.......  not ALL change is bad, but all change IS threatning.

BTW... one of the MOST important things we are trying to avoid is creating ARMY-creep, like what has been consistenly messing up the Warhammer environment.