Three equal armies

[Geep]

I'm starting out in Warmaster and am trying to get some interest from other gamers, so I have bought fieldable armies for a few different races.
My favourite army is Orcs and Goblins- these are what I'm currently painting and will be using, but I also have a considerable amount of Empire and High Elf models too.
I intend to paint three 1000pt armies, each of roughly similar ability which also showcase some special units in each army- The army lists are:

Orcs and Goblins-
General
Orc Hero
Orc Shaman
Goblin Shaman
3 units of Orc Warriors
2 Units of Goblins
2 units of Boar Riders (1 with Sword of Cleaving, 1 with Sword of Might)
2 Units of Wolf Riders
1 Giant

High Elves
General
Wizard
2 Units of Spearmen
2 Units of Archers
2 Units of Silver Helms
2 Units of Reavers
1 Unit of Giant Eagles

Empire
General
Hero
Wizard
2 Units of Halberdiers
2 Units of Crossbowmen
2 Stands of Skirmishers (I'm thinking to add to the Halberdiers)
2 Units of Knights (1 with Sword of Fate)
2 Units of Pistoliers
1 Unit of Cannons

My thinking is that every army has at least 2 of each basic infantry type, 2 heavy cavalry, 2 light cavalry and something unique on top of that. Everyone also has at least one wizard, with as many heroes as I think they'll need and magic items added to fill points gaps.

To those more experienced in this game- do these lists look roughly equal? Is there some hideous blasphemy I have committed against a particular army?
i will later be expanding each army to 2000pts, but am daunted enough by the painting for now that I'm not thinking about that...

Thanks for any help.

[azrael71]

The orcs look ok.
I would possibly drop the giant for more troops and another hero as big monsters tend to be a waste of points at sub 2000 points.

High elves list over runs by 110 points.
Heavy cav rule this game if the board does not have enough scenery and linear obstacles.
So bear this in mind on your selection.
The eagles are very useful for mopping up enemy artillery and causing command penalties.
I would potentially drop a unit of archers and 1 unit of reavers and take a bolt thrower.
That said, I always pick fluffy lists and take loads of archers even though shooting is not usually a game winner

The empire list is bang on the nose points wise.
A lot of players do not rate skirmishers as they do not add to your break point (essential part of the game) I would swap them for a helblaster (same points) to protect your cannon from attack.

But all this is just my opinion.
Get what you propose and see how it plays (amending the orc list so it is legal )
Then use those findings for expanding them to 2000 points.

I always buy max of the min-max levels and a significant number of the none limited choices. So for a 2k list I normally buy around 3k of models. This gives me a very nice choice when it comes to picking a force and the fact that I never play the same list twice. But friends of mine are still playing the same dwarf list they picked when the game was released 

A good start for all 3 armies may be the battle of the five armies box set.
It will definitely cover off your goblin needs whilst giving you a few of infantry units for the high elves and empire. anything leftover you can either keep or trade.

As for painting, once you start you will find it very easy.
There are some decent hints and pointers on these forums along with the painters tale to help keep you motivated.

The toughest thing about this game is finding opponents and I wish you good luck with that

Cheers
Mick

[Geep]

I'd like to keep the giant with the Orcs as it is a unique feature of that army- although I own more troops (including Black Orcs, Trolls and Ogres), these all just fill the role of fairly common infantry (which the list has an example of already).
You also mention at the bottom of the post that the Orc army isn't legal- is there a revised Orc and Goblin army somewhere?

How do the High Elves go over by 110 points? The list given is straight from the rulebook and adds up correctly, and using the 'High Elf Tournament Army' from the trial armies pdf only the list is only 10 points over.
I like Bolt Throwers in the High Elf list- my decision against them is because the empire list already gives an example of artillery, whereas neither the Orcs or Empire can give an example of a flying unit.
I have some experience with the eagles after some improvised warmaster games- in one game they tore the centre out of my army (due to awful command checks on my part, and the army being all goblins), while in another they disappeared in a puff of feathers as I got a charge on them with wolf riders.
I don't intend any of these armies to be very competitive- I mainly want them as a way to learn the rules without completely hamstringing the game. Was your comment on 'fluffiness' indicating the list I posted is too hard at all?

Swapping the skirmishers for a helblaster would be ok for the empire- I just don't own a helblaster yet. More artillery experience can't hut a new player 
Isn't the fact that skirmishers don't add to break points a positive and negative thing? They also don't give command penalties if killed, so they seem like a great sacrificial troop that may help the halberdiers out long enough that they survive a combat.

I already own significantly more than what I have in the above lists, I'm just trying to give some order to my painting (I'm a very slow painter- though I finally finished my basic 2 orc and 2 goblin unit requirements yesterday  )
I also own BoFA already- it's how I've been trying to lure friends into the game. I really like how much is in that box.

After our practice games with BoFA models one of my friends decided he liked the look of Dwarfs in Warmaster... Of course it had to be something I don't have to lend to him... I'll probably make a dwarf army sometime soon as well.

Thanks for the feedback

[azrael71]

Sorry gave you an extra hero
But you are still 30 points over.
Are you using the latest PDF from the GW site?

General 180
Wizard 90
2 Units of Spearmen 2x60 = 120
2 Units of Archers 2x75 = 150
2 Units of Silver Helms 2x110 = 220
2 Units of Reavers 2x100 = 200
1 Unit of Giant Eagles 70
comes to 1030 points

Cheers
Mick

[docdom]

I like the way you made up the lists and the thoughts behind it.

@ Azrael:

using the 'High Elf Tournament Army' from the trial armies pdf only the list is only 10 points over.

In the High Elf Tournament Army List the Reavers are 90p each and their shooting only hits on a 4+. That's the way we played it at the Euro GT.

[azrael71]

@ double click here

I know.
But the tournament list is still a trial/fan list and always will be in all honesty.
The only official lists are those published by GW.

[Geep]

I didn't know the pdf from GW had changed... I'll adjust the list for that.
Does the official pdf change much? I thought Warmaster was basically just run by the gaming community now.

[Lex]

I didn't know the pdf from GW had changed... I'll adjust the list for that.
Does the official pdf change much? I thought Warmaster was basically just run by the gaming community now.

That is what Az meant ^^

all the most recent work on errata and armylists is "community" and not "official"....  at least that is one POV 

[docdom]

@ azrael71

But the tournament list is still a trial/fan list and always will be in all honesty.
The only official lists are those published by GW.

Yippieh! Didn't know that. My high elves get the 3+ back again. Thanks for the info.

[azrael71]

@ azrael71

But the tournament list is still a trial/fan list and always will be in all honesty.
The only official lists are those published by GW.

Yippieh! Didn't know that. My high elves get the 3+ back again. Thanks for the info.

Cool.
People bitch about high elves and daemons being too strong in the game.
But this has never been my experience.
If you know the strengths and weaknesses of both contesting armies then it comes down to the roll of a dice
There is more than one way to batter a High Elf army   as I have learned to my cost

[Claus]

@Azrael

Beleave me ....Daemons are to strong.....therefore the written Tournament list from my side.

In 2 years I lost only five games with them ....

If you once detected their strength you are almost unbeatable...even Lizzardmen are not that tough 
Shure at the end you also need a certain portin of luck....but if you know what you do you can compensate the luck factor quite good.

Cheers
Claus

[azrael71]

Fishing, is real good on this thread lately  

@Claus, I find them a fun army to play with and against.
If someone in our group comes along with a surefire game winning strategy it only takes a few weeks for someone to top it.

[spiritusXmachina]

Sure.
Easiest way would be you play against Claus and his Daemons. Maybe we can arrange a game someday somewhere around europe. Everything else is just talking. 

Greetings,
Gerald

[azrael71]

No, it is personal opinion.
I play with and against all of the armies excluding araby and bretonnians.
As previously stated when we come across surefire game winning strategy within our playing group, we adapt to overcome it.

Within our gaming group there is more than enough hostility to changing anything in regards the ruleset or army lists. So nerfing armies just because someone has come up with a great tactic and no one is smart enough to get around it will also receive a very similar hostile response.

If you are drawing up tournament lists for one or two armies then they need to be done for all the armies allowed at a tournament.
But this is how WHFB has gone with different rules packs and comp for different tournaments.

All that said the tournament scene for WM isn't exactly large, is it?
You are talking about 10 a year and that is world wide.
In the UK we have about 3 or 4 if we are lucky (+1 if the euro GT visits).

Again just my opinion.

That and the OP was in regards none tournament play

[Geep]

That and the OP was in regards none tournament play

I live in Australia... I've never even heard of Warmaster tournaments happening here...

I think for the high elf list I'll drop one unit of Silver Helms for another unit of Spearmen. The remaining 20 points will go to magic items (probably a Scroll of Dispelling, just for variety).
This isn't exactly an exciting change, but I'm trying to keep things simple for new players (myself included).

Does anyone have suggestions for a starting Dwarf army?
My friend wants to take as many Rangers as possible, and I figure this takes the 'light cavalry' position in this army. I think I'll also add Trollslayers (as a hard hitting 'heavy cavalry' equivalent) and a Gyrocopter (a machine is so far unique in these lists).
So...

Dwarf General
Hero
2x Warriors
1x Thunderers
2x Rangers
2x Troll Slayers
1x Gyrocopter

I think this comes to 1000 points exactly. Anything horrible here?