Magic - 2 spells with opposite effect on same unit....nice one.

[Claus]

Hello mates.

 I were toying around in my minds with different WM army set ups and when weighting the pro and cons of each set up I found this one.


Bretonian player casts Shield of combat on his unit......

SHIELD OF COMBAT
4+ to cast
Range n/a
The enemy's blows are magically deflected by unseen forces and
cause no harm.
An Enchantress can cast this spell upon a unit that she has
joined.
The spell lasts until the end of the opposing player's following turn

The unit can re-roll any failed Armour rolls during the Combat
phase. This does not include hits suffered from enemy missilefire
during a charge, as these are deemed to be shooting hits and
are encompassed by the Aerial Shield spell.
Note that only a single re-roll is permitted regardless of what
other factors apply. It is never permitted to re-roll a re-roll in any
circumstances

In the turn of the Araby player a direct charge into this unit (having SHIELD OF COMBAT) is done.
The Araby player casts now CURSE OF THE DJINN on this unit.

CURSE OF THE DJINN
6+ to cast
Range 30cm
The sorcerer channels the immense power of the Djinn through
his own body and lays a terrible curse upon his foes.
The sorcerer may cast this spell on an enemy unit within range.
The target unit must re-roll all successful armour saves for the
duration of the following close combat phase.
If the Sorcerer has a Djinn then he adds +1 to his dice roll when
casting this spell, and therefore casts successfully on a 5+.

1 )
So .... you see the problem ?
We have a spell allowing to reroll failed armour saves and a spell forcing the unit to reroll succesfull armor save on the same unit.
Now....which one is effective ? Both ? No...this can´t be the intention. The last one cast on it .. maybe ... would at least make sense ? None of them...why .... and in case of YES....would it allow to cast again CURSE OF THE DJINN on this unit ?

2)
Also I have to admit that I never were a friend of this SHIELD OF COMBAT spell. Why the hell does his effect last until the end of the opposing player's following turn (it´s good enough if it is only lasting till the end of the combat phase).  In addition it is cast on 4+. It´s the only spell in game that is impacting armour saves and lasting till opposite players next turn..... Also it´s the only spell in game having effect to armour saves and being cast on 4+ .... all other armour saves impacting spells are cast on 5+ THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT JUSTIFIED....add this to the wish list of neccessary corrections.

Regards
Claus

[spiritusXmachina]

Two contradicting spells. That's an interesting one.
If encountering such a situation as referee I would say both spells are in effect - as disspelling a spell would be an extra ability and this is not mentioned in the Araby spell ;-).
I'd say "first come first go", so the effects of the bret spell are determined first, means the "missed armour-rolls" are re-rolled - then the araby spell takes effect, so for every hit that did not wound the bretonnian player has to roll again.

2)
Also I have to admit that I never were a friend of this SHIELD OF COMBAT spell. Why the hell does his effect last until the end of the opposing player's following turn (it´s good enough if it is only lasting till the end of the combat phase).  ...THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT JUSTIFIED...

I disagree. Imo this is indeed justified as you need to first join the unit with a 45 points wizard/sorceress (a model that does not even add +1 attack if you do not put her on a unicorn, which would rise the prize to 60 pts). After taking that chance you do not even know if the spell works (only a 50:50 chance). Maybe you could take a Wand of Power or Ring of Magic to increase that chance (which would further rise the point prize for another 10 to 30 points.

So it's true, the protection of the spell might still work in the opponent's phase (if the spell succeeded, of course). But destroying that unit (especially if the Shield did not work) is a fat extra-bait...

If the sorceress would not need to join the unit, I would perfectly agree with you. But that's not the case!
You need to see the whole picture before judging...

This spell stands in the tradition of the Undead "Touch of Death" and the Chaos "Boon of Chaos" which all are 4+ and which all need the sorcerer to risk joining a fighting unit.



Greetings,
Gerald

[Claus]

@SpiritusX

Your point....

I disagree. Imo this is indeed justified as you need to first join the unit with a 45 points wizard/sorceress (a model that does not even add +1 attack if you do not put her on a unicorn, which would rise the prize to 60 pts). After taking that chance you do not even know if the spell works (only a 50:50 chance). Maybe you could take a Wand of Power or Ring of Magic to increase that chance (which would further rise the point prize for another 10 to 30 points.

So it's true, the protection of the spell might still work in the opponent's phase (if the spell succeeded, of course). But destroying that unit (especially if the Shield did not work) is a fat extra-bait...

....is not a restriction to Bretonian Army only. Every army having spells (movement spells...etc.) where wizzards have to join the unit will face this risk but none of the other armies have the advantage that the spell lasts till opponent full next turn !!!

These spells are:

Undead "Touch of Death" - Only effective in the turn the Undead player casts it. 4+ spell
Lizzardmen Wings in the Jungle" - Only effective in the turn the Lizzardmen player casts it. 5+ spell
Kislevites "Monster Bear" - Only lasts for duration of following cobat phase. 5+ spell
Dark Elf "Soul Stealer" - Only effective in the phase it got cast by the wizzard. 5+ spell
Vampire Counts "Curse of Years" - Only effective in the phase it got cast by wizzard. 6+ spell

I agree to join wizzard, not knowing if spell is succesfull is a risk....but it´s the same for every army joining a wizzard to a unit .... but I would say ....losing extra 35 pts is a minor risk compared to what you can get for

Regards
Claus

[spiritusXmachina]

Yes, but every other of those armies has at least one spell to induce direct damage plus in some case extra spells to increase attacks.
Bretonnians have non of these. Bretonnians have just one spell to increase the passive resistance of a unit. Not a single damage dealer. So if you attack this unit in your own round it's your decision - you don't need to run into it.
Bretonnians have about the weakest spell list in Warmaster (except Dwarfs of course ;-)). I don't think it's fair to reduce them even more.

....losing extra 35 pts is a minor risk compared to what you can get for

Not correct. Minimum 45 pts! The same a unit spearmen would cost.

Greetings,
Gerald

[Guthwine]

I would say its pretty easy. You roll and reroll your saves because of the shield of combat and all saved hits are then rerolled because of the curse of the djinn.

The reason why I think its unreasonable to call this spell "unjustified" is that you have a significantly lower breakpoint than your enemies and you have to make the most of your knights. Empire/Araby/(and so on) armies can counter with almost equally many knights and have enough infantry to save the breakpoint.

Also usually its 60 points to sacrifice the enchantress.

[Claus]

I know .....

having units not counting to the Break point of the army is big disadvantage.
having ability to take unlimited units of Knights crys for getting an adequate magical protection for them.
having a 5+ flying Cavalry unit is not good enough ...yes you convinced me

Yes shure I can ignore a cavalry unit that will charge next turn on initiative or on succesfull command......but I see you don´t want get my point.....It´s not the spell itself....it´s the combination of all the spell is offering....the 4+ to cast (3+ with Unicorn, 3+ with wand of power) the effect it has (especially for 4+ save Knights) the fact it´s lasting also into opponent next turn.....making it impossible for foot troops to dish out enough damage to kill 1 Stand....even making it impossible for the other knight unit to win in a 1 unit vers 1 unit fight (as per statistic).....

Anyway I give it up....it´s not worth the effort for me to convince you .....I still will beat you on the battelfield of honor    (not when playin Chaos as the last time)


Actually I don´t agree with you that both spells should have it´s effect on the same unit.
In my opinion it would be better that both are nullified as they annihilate each other.

Regards
Claus

[Guthwine]

I really dont get the bretonnia bashing. I mean its not like they are the uber-army even with the pegasus knights. There are many powerful 4+ spells: anger of the gods/sand storm, weird entchantment, doom and despair, mirage, and dominion/mazdas revenge. But noones complaining.

1)having units not counting to the Break point of the army is big disadvantage.

And yes sometimes it is a problem that the infantry does not count towards the breakpoint. Especially if you have a breakpoint 4 army (6 knights+pegasi) and play against a 6 Knights Empire force with a breakpoint of 11. This medal has 2 sides!

2)having ability to take unlimited units of Knights crys for getting an adequate magical protection for them.

Yes but in great numbers you have the problem that your knights can be radio controlled by your enemy because they all have to charge on initiative.

Also it is great to attach the enchantress just to get your opponents dispell scroll when you succesfully cast it. Its not like you cant prevent it from happening.

As for the original question:

The target unit must re-roll all successful armour saves for the duration of the following close combat phase.

So you do your saves and reroll failed ones because of the shield of combat to get the number of succesful armour saves and then reroll it again because of the curse.

[Claus]

And again wrong......it´s no Bretonian Army bashing......somehow it seems that you want to understand it wrong as you play this army...

The army has stile....this specific spell is inadequate as it is right now....this is my statement.
Give Bretonian army a shooting spell....no issue with that.

There are other things as well that are inadequate like the......

Current "Divine Guidance" rule for Lizzardmen
The to cheap "Chaos Hounds"
The lack off additional hero (not wizzard) at "Tomb King army
The ability to take 2 wizzards per 1k points  at "Daemone Army" and to upgrade the General to a wizzard in addition. (well at least in tournament army list it´s corrected by me)
flying units allowed to charge at 100cm
Trebuchet being allowed to shoot into deployment zone.
the possible dragon perpetuum mobile
flyer being able to move with magic
etc.....

But I don´t want to fight all this fights at once....so let´s do it step by step 
Anyway I stop it for today.....tomorrow is another day 

[Claus]

To come back of the initial intention of this topic....

By chance I found this one when reading Q&A section in old Warmuster Magazine # 7, page 33, right column at the bottom:

Q:
What happens when a giant that has been "Doomed and Despaired" goes wild and has to charge the nearest enemy unit within a double move of him ?

A:
In cases of plain contradiction of compulsory results we recommend that the most recent result allways takes precedence. So in this case the giant shakes off the "Doom and Despair" and goes with the "Giant goes wild" result.

In this sence of the answer I would apply the same behavior here....meaning that the Charged knights have to reroll succesful amor saves !!

Regards
Claus

P.S.:
Sometimes it´s really usefull to read in the old Warmaster Magazines.

[spiritusXmachina]

Yes, but Doom and Despair and Going Wild directly contradict each other.
Shield of Combat and Curse of the Djinn do not. They both can have their effect. The only question for me is which effect is first.
 

[wmchaos2000]

On topic 1:
This has not happend to us, but we would probably play it like this.
1. On the first roll of saves, some come out as saves, some as unsaved.
2a. Those that are saved are then rerolled due to Djinn spell. After that they are already rerolled once and cannot therefore be rerolled again however the outcome.
2b. Those that are unsaved get rerolled due to Shield spell and no more reroll are maid here either.
Seems most fair to both sides.