Question about stand and shoot

[wmchaos2000]

Lex, I just realised that you are doing a poll (correct?) out of the shooter+dragon example, so I removed my answer. 

Should we apply the chance for the shots to kill charging stands? If so, which units are we discussing?

[Lex]

Dicing with dragons...  a pratical application that is within the rules.

A unit of [shooters] is joined by a character on a dragon. The unit is charged from LOS by a unit of horseman that allign on one of the outside stands, effectivly creating frontage against 2 stands.
A second unit of horsemen then charges in and allignes adjacent to the first attackers.

How many Stand&Shoot attacks are fired on the attackers in total ?

The POLL refers to the question above !!

No stands are removed after the first S&S reaction. Simple straigthforward application  B]

[Guthwine]

There is no "rule" that says you can only shoot at attackers when they are in contact with your stands, it is a practicality of the procedure to roll them at that time, and before moving the next unit, because in those cases where stands ARE taken casualty, this may influence the next unit moving.

Note that sometimes stands get to shoot at attackers that actualy end-up outside LOS, which could be interpreted as "the shooting takes place at any point where the shooting unit can acutaly SEE the attacker.

Sorry for being annoying but I dont think the rules give that much room for interpretation:

Stands capable of shooting (including artillery, appropriate monsters and some machines) and which are not already engaged in combat, can shoot at enemy units charging their own unit. Remember, a unit is ‘charged’ so long as it is contacted by a charging stand – it does not matter if the unit was not the original target of the charge. [...]

Shots are worked out as soon as the charging unit has finished its move.
Shooting stands must be able to draw a line of sight to the enemy unit at some point during the charge move whilst it is within their weapon range. This can be at any moment during the charge: either at the start of the move, once it is complete or at any point in between. [...]

Calculate the effect of shots and remove anywhole stand casualties straight away before moving any further units [...]

Shots are always calculated from the position of the chargers at the end of their move[...]

[spiritusXmachina]

Sounds quite clear to me too now.

So it may be ok to choose any point along the charge movement to shoot, but shots are worked out when the movement is finished. So at first the unit is placed at the Warp Lightning Cannon then all shooting hits take effect - then the charging unit tests for confusion then all touching units have to test for confusion too (if the charging unit got a wound). That also means that following chargers will not have to test because they do not touch yet.

Greetings,
Gerald

[mspaetauf]

the skaven would also have to test for confusion. It does not matter when the shooting takes place, it is worked out when the attackers have reached their final position (says so in the rules), so the skaven have to test, too.

About the example: dragon + unit can shoot all their shots at the attacking unit; if the attacking unit creates frontage with 2 stands, then 2 other stands can shoot back (depends on what stands are in contact, as the dragon has more attacks). Mind that corner contact does not count as contact in this case!

bg,

[Bel]

the skaven would also have to test for confusion. It does not matter when the shooting takes place, it is worked out when the attackers have reached their final position (says so in the rules), so the skaven have to test, too.

About the example: dragon + unit can shoot all their shots at the attacking unit;

true.

if the attacking unit creates frontage with 2 stands, then 2 other stands can shoot back (depends on what stands are in contact, as the dragon has more attacks). Mind that corner contact does not count as contact in this case!

?

[Lex]

the skaven would also have to test for confusion. It does not matter when the shooting takes place, it is worked out when the attackers have reached their final position (says so in the rules), so the skaven have to test, too.

The only thing the RuleBOOK says (and that is in particular for Boltthrowers, as the WLC was not around when it was written):

Note that shots from bolt throwers can penetrate
enemy stands and affect other stands or units behind
the target. Shots are always calculated from the
position of the chargers at the end of their move – so
penetration can be easily calculated from the final
position of the charging unit.

The underlined bit is the only part that actualy could be comsidered as constituting the reason for calculating effect for WLC on final positioning of chargers.

About the example: dragon + unit can shoot all their shots at the attacking unit; if the attacking unit creates frontage with 2 stands, then 2 other stands can shoot back (depends on what stands are in contact, as the dragon has more attacks).

OK, I dont think you actualy wrote what you are trying to tell, but did you Vote in the Poll ??   if so, then yes

Mind that corner contact does not count as contact in this case!

Uhhhh  in what way does it not count ??  stands in C2C contact are considered to be fighting and ar enot allowed to participate in S&S

[Guthwine]

A unit of [shooters] is joined by a character on a dragon. The unit is charged from LOS by a unit of horseman that allign on one of the outside stands, effectivly creating frontage against 2 stands.
A second unit of horsemen then charges in and allignes adjacent to the first attackers.

How many Stand&Shoot attacks are fired on the attackers in total ?

The first attackers gets 3 +3 dragon shots and the second charger gets 1 + 3 dragon shots, so I would say all in all 10 shots are fired in s&s.

[Lex]

A unit of [shooters] is joined by a character on a dragon. The unit is charged from LOS by a unit of horseman that allign on one of the outside stands, effectivly creating frontage against 2 stands.
A second unit of horsemen then charges in and allignes adjacent to the first attackers.

How many Stand&Shoot attacks are fired on the attackers in total ?

The first attackers gets 3 +3 dragon shots and the second charger gets 1 + 3 dragon shots, so I would say all in all 10 shots are fired in s&s.

DANG !!       now you gave it away .......   ^^ that was what the poll was for   

[mspaetauf]

direct copy & paste from the GW rules update:  (get it from their website)

Shots are worked out as soon as the charging unit has finished its move.

Page 7, P28, 4th paragraph

so, that makes it obvious that the skaven have to test, IMO. Also i see no reason why it should be any different from e.g. bolt throwers.

about the corner-to-corner: sorry, my mistake, I got it the wrong way around.

forget what I said about the dragon example, it was confusing 

best regards,

[Lex]

direct copy & paste from the GW rules update:  (get it from their website)

Shots are worked out as soon as the charging unit has finished its move.

Page 7, P28, 4th paragraph

Actualy that is not a rule, but a procedure statement   . This is to avoid people having to stop moving because the attacked units says "stop there, that is the point where I will shoot at them...."

A better quote of the rules to "prove" this point is mentioned up-thread. IT is a couple of paragraphs lower, concerning the boltthrower.

General concensus is that the shots are worked out taking into consideration the final position of attackers (with the attacker having the option WHICH stand to remove should he take casualties). Specific for the WLC this implies that ANY adjacent unit to the target unit should test, if the target unit takes WOUNDS (not hits). Also note that should the WLC blow up itself, this goes against the attacking units too.

Skaven specific rules btw are ambivalent on this point !!

[spiritusXmachina]

@Lex: As Guthwine just spoiled your puzzle I would plead you make a new one - maybe in a new post. I think it's a nice idea.

Greetings,
Gerald

[mspaetauf]

Actualy that is not a rule, but a procedure statement   .

makes me curious - what is the basis for above statement?

Otherwise one could always take any rules-discussion to absurdity this way....

Well anyways - i think your quote above (the bolt thrower) very much resembles what I am trying to say here; actually i don't really see reason for discussion as the rules are quite clear in my opinion!

regards,

[azrael71]

Got to agree with Gerald.
I have been scratching my head all afternoon over this one
More WM brain teasers please.

[Guthwine]

Yeah sorry for spoiling the puzzle, didnt realize it was one.

I always get excited when I know something. But I think a WM "quiz" is a great idea!

@Topic: Gotta agree with mspaetauf. How do we distinguish rule from procedure?