Odd combat situation

[wmchaos2000]

Hey everybody.

We had our first go with Daemons yesterday. My opponent tested them and I used my all-around Chaos list.

At one point we had a 3 stand DaemonHorde(A) standing on line and brigaded with a 2 stand DaemonHorde(BB) touching As rear with its flank and facing away from As flank. BB also on line.

One 1 stand ChaosChariot(C) charged A in flank and a 3 stand Chaos Hounds(D) charged BB in front.

A
A
ABBBB
C DDD

Due to the move chargers rules, the only connection making the combat a multi combat were where A, BB and C touched.

After combat phase was done A was unharmed, BB was killed, C was killed and D lost one stand.
All this making it a draw.

Here comes the odd part.
A and D never were in base to base, but they both were in the same combat. Both killed there base to base opponent. But the combat was a draw.
What happens?

We figured, since it was a draw and that should override the killing their opponent part, they both made a fall back from drawn combat.

Was it the right decision? How would you do?

Maybe they both should be allowed an advance?

 

[Lex]

Suggest make a diagram using simple visual tool ?  or even using Google Doc ? as I think I see the problem, but is to hard to tell from your post

[pw]

If I'm reading this correctly then my understanding is that the combat was a multi-combat before any dice were thrown and that the final result should be based on this regardless of what happened during the combat. So I think you got this right, that's certainly how I'd have played it. No doubt someone who knows what they're up to will be along soon to confirm one way or another!

[Guthwine]

From what I understand it looked like this:



If thats correct than you played it right. It doesnt matter if A and B never were in contact, because B was in contact with all attackers.

[wmchaos2000]

Yep, you are right Guthwine. Thanks for the clearing schematic.
And thanks for all answers, it helps to know there are some experts out there when in need. 

[wmchaos2000]

Hello.

Another odd situation.

One Chaos Knight (CK) is charging a brigade of Chaos Dwarf Warriors (CDW) and Orc Slaves (OS).
CK is in the flank of the brigade and the OS is the defender. The CDW is on the OS other flank and both are in column formation.

Beyond the brigade, in the CK view, there is a Goblin Wolf Rider (GWR) unit that is less then 2cm away from the CDW and in an angle to the brigade so that the CDW front stand is unblocked by the GWR, the middle stand is less then 2cm away and the rear stand is about 3cm away.

As combat proceeds CK forces OS to retreat 2cm and thereby forcing CDW to yield sideways towards the GWR. At this stage the CD general decides to not yield with the GWR (a lot of other units would have been affected then) and therefore one stand of the CDW is destroyed due to the “Unyielding friends”-rule.
BUT the destroyed stand is the middle one in the CDW unit. What happens?

1.
If the middle stand is removed, another would have to take its place (due to unit coherency) and then also be removed, leaving only one stand left.

2.
The middle stand is removed and the two remaining is left standing separated.

3.
The middle stand is removed, the remaining stands are moved together so that their combined movement is the shortest distance to get out of the OS way.


Number 3 is roughly how we decided to solve it, but we agreed on that it seemed very odd.

Any ideas about what should have happened? What should we have done?

BR /ola

[Lex]

As the OS is fighting and the CDW wont give way the CK did damage on the OS and the CDW finish them off, remove OS and CK now need to use Advance......

[Geep]

It's not the CDW not giving way, it's the GWR behind them which are only in the way of a single stand.

Blocked retreat works by stands, not units, so if only one stand is blocked from retreat that stand is lost. When it's the middle stand that is lost... I don't know.

I'd probably remove it and continue the combat- at the end of the combat turn the two stands must be in contact once more or, if that's not possible, one stand is destroyed. There's no real advantage I see in losing the middle stand instead of a side stand in this situation (as I doubt the CK's could have got a flank hit), so I don't think the impact would be too bad. In the event this did negatively effect the CK's (as a stand is out of base contact or similar) I'd play that that stand still gets to attack, as I don't think the CK's should be punished for their success (in this case).

[Lex]

But the OS are fighting...... !  and as it is only Orcslaves, refuse to give way, kill of the OS and force him to Advance, rather then loosing a stand of more valuable CDW.

Also of importance is the distance that the OS needed to move, and the factor IF they lost stand in the fight already.
Remember that you just need to move ONE stand for the MINIMAL distance the give way is !  and that the others arrange with that one.........   

[Geep]

Although this isn't the exact situation the OP describes I think it's a simple visual away to address a similar situation:



The green Chaos Knights have hit both  the Orc Slaves (yellow) and Chaos Dwarfs (orange), forcing them back. The Wolf riders (red) will not give way to the falling back Chaos Dwarfs, trapping and wiping out the centre stand.

How should the remaining Chaos Dwarf stands be placed?


What if the Wolf Riders are angled to prevent the Chaos Dwarfs forming a column behind the one in combat, assuming that move is possible (I'm not sure if it is)?

[Lex]

Around here, you would loose 2 stand of the Dwarfs. One one account of the blocking (the one specificly blocked ) the second because you NEED to maintain formation and you cant (as that would force you to place it ON the other unit.

I still stand by my original comment on the OTHER situation, where the CDwarfs where not actualy in combat.

[TristanHoag]

I think that there is a disconnect in the OP's situation. If I am understanding the description correctly, only the Orc Slaves are in contact with the Chaos Knights, and therefore are the only ones being forced to retreat.The Chaos Dwarves are simply making way for them, not retreating, so they will not necessarily be required to lose stands.

As I see it, there are two possibilities at this point, and the original post does not specify the difference. If the Orc Slaves lost at least one stand, then at least one of the Chaos Dwarf stands would not be forced to make way, and the others would reform around that one.

If they did not lose a stand (bad luck for the chaos knights!) then all three stands of Chaos Dwarves would be forced to make way, one stand would move the shortest distance to be clear (2 cm directly away from the Orc slaves, or the front stand could move 2 cm forward, or the back stand could move 2 cm backwards.), then the rest of the unit would reform around that one.

In either option, the player can choose to reposition around the Wolf Riders, and does not need to destroy stands of Chaos Dwarves.

Ref: Pg 15, Rules Update: Making Way; also see the diagram on page 57 of the rulebook (not sure about living rulebook pages, going from downloadable .pdf files from GW site...)

[Borka]

Hi guys!

I was the other player and I have a picture of the actual occasion, here it comes 



This is right after the middle stand had died. The OS and CDW were forced to retreat 1 cm each from the nights. The middle stand of the OS connected with the GWR and they couldn't make way due to being in combat to their rear with some harpies. And apprently now that I see the picture the OS must have been in irregular formation (the leading stand seems to have slided a bit, this seems really strange to me cause I can't remember what would have put them in that strange formation. The hole situation might actually have been due to a misstake, can you remember why they were like that wmchaos?

In the end the only survivors on the chaos dwarf side (2 units of CDW and 2 of OS) were these guys



(this was after killing the knight unit in my turn though with the help of 1 unit of GWR ). Those knights were insane and managed an obscene amount of saves before going down.

Thanks for a very enjoyable game wmchaos, I learned a great deal about the game!

cheers