I need a new challenge! Combat Dwarves!

[Ram Rock Ed First]

It's 3:24 am right now (now it's 5:58am!{Now 6:35am!!}), I have a cover letter to write for a job application still and have been wiling the time away here. I've played few games of Mordheim recently focusing more on 40k having picked up some really huge armies recently for really cheap. I think one of the reasons I've not been inspired by Mordheim as much recently is because I can take any warband put in front of me, play through the early campaign in my standard way that creates an incredibly powerful warband build and sets you up for mid-campaign and the longterm efficiently and well and then I'm solidly grounded to take on most challenges. Whether combat or shooting or a mix, as a player I am able to play at such a level that I can adapt to the scenario and warbands I am facing and usually do it with 3-5 heroes maximum, though I can equally advance well with a large warband.

So where does this leave me as a player? Understimulated and looking for something crazy and challenging that is rarely done, or almost unheard of in the confines of Mordheim. I've successfully lead an all combat dwarf army against skilled tournament players of Warhammer Fantasy Battles, so the question is could I do the same in Mordheim or one of its' alternative settings?

Combat Dwarves, No shooting whatsoever, not even a pistol shot, pure up close smackdown with the standard list from the 2002 Annual (Damn, that's 7 years old now, wow!). I've played against Dwarves several times and even done a few one off games witha good mix of shooting so I know that the best way to play them is to max out on your stored equipment to start with. You get bargain rare items in the beginning and whereas Heavy armour and a shield or ithilmar armour and a shield is not as good as it appears, gromril armour and a shield is damned impressive. If you are playing against warbands such as middenheimers or even dark elves who have cloaks that further increase armour saves at range or in combat then capturing heroes and ransoming them back for several of those items is a must. But that's further into a campaign and not specific. I admit to liking the concept of an all combat Dwarf army and approaching it in an unconventional manner, starting witha noble and 2 beardlings gives me but 1 hero and 2 cheap hencies but the extra shard of wrydstone will see me getting 2 shards on my first game and 3 if I am particularly lucky. Resource Hunter coupled with Tarot Cards and a Lucky Rabbits foot see's my first skill and first 2 items of choice from exploration. IIRC a Noble is 85gc and beardlings are 25gc's each. That's 135gc's of 500 leaving me a solid amount of 365gc's. Where will I throw all this? Into gromril armour and the best starting weapon in the game - a 9gc gromril hammer. 3 suits of Gromril armour sets me back 225gc's all will go in the stash. That leaves me 140gc's to spam out gromril hammers with giving me a grand total of 15 at 135gc's and 5gc's for storage. The first few games are simple: Lose a beardling and leg it, use income to get slayers and an engineer as well as warriors, keep guys hidden, lose beardlings and other henchies and voluntarily rout whilst advancing still further.

Combat Dwarves:

1 Noble 85gc
Dagger

1 Beardling 25gc
Dagger

1 Beardling 25gc
1 Dagger

Storage:

3 Suits of Gromril Armour
15 Gromril Hammers
5 gc's.

Thoughts?

Ram.

[StyrofoamKing]

Ram, I'm not down-playing your creative brilliance or your success with the game... but it is absolutely inconceivable to me that a warband intentionally designed to run away as soon as a single member is taken out of action would be any fun to play with or against.  I'm not saying it's cheap or unfair, but can you honestly say that the experience is enjoyable until five or six games in? 

Also, if you're really interested in a H-t-H combat dwarf gang, I can send you my rules for the Slayer Cult. Although, thye have a penalty for voluntarily routing, which would probably cramp your strategy. 

[Master]

A nice idea, although if you played with my group everything would be done in order to hit that noble, in every game.

Having long ago figured out income is the sweetest spot to hit your opponents my gaming groups ignores single henchmen send to their dead, they are often just tied up with some stupid warrior or easily avoided, and the rest of the warband would run for the heroes.

Also, although I like your idea of using the classic dwarf warband and no missile weapon at all, I think you have set your starting scopes a little high. If you purchase those hammers later on they will only cost 3 gc more each, so would it be too much harm to start with some more heroes? They would give loads extra income.

[Ram Rock Ed First]

The extra hammers later on are what rare 11 or rare 12 items? Of course it will kill later on to get those hammers as you'll be spending a great many games trying to find just 1.

To targetting the Noble first, you can try, but if he is hidden, and you have beardlings being thrown in your way you will have to face the beardlings. We target heroes over hencies when we get the chance but we also play very tactical and thought out games. I'm much better with 3 guys then I am with 12 or more as I don't make mistakes often with 3.

To running away for the first few games, it's usually how I play with small warbands, once in a while you manage to hack into your opponent, but campaign wise you start to see underdog experience filter down to you and also get a feel for the warband as a whole. It's a campaign tactic, ina  few one off games you aim to kill as much as possible, in these games you sit back and leg it for a few then specialise.

I don't want the Slayer Dwarfs because they are a combat warband. I've played Possessed, Skaven, Orcs et al as combat bads and done quite well with them, but few if anyone takes a pure Dwarf band ith the intention to be combat based only because their movement screws them up (I should mention we play with the simple rule that you can ALWAYS run even if there is an opponent inside of 8 inches of you - our games have become infinitely more enjoyable and tactical).

The post above was done all over the shop on little sleep. As such I didn't explain the thoughts too well as anyone looking at it goes '1 hero 2 henchies, daggers, stored equip, at least stick a gromril hammer on the noble and some armour' and the point is, I won't risk the equipment until I am ready, that means 1 game where you pick up a shield for your Noble and he suddenly is doing damned fine. Lucky Rabbits feet then Lucky Charms are a standard first 2-3 game acquisitions followed by a deck of Tarot Cards (House Ruled to 1 deck either on a magic user or a leader). With small numbers any wrydstone found translates to decent income. An Engineer brought at the end of the 1st or 2nd game then increases income and you should at this stage have 2 shields, so armour the Dwarfs up and give them a gromril hammer or two (two, gives options). A couple games in Slayers would be useful but then start spamming the Clansmen, buy them a single hammer to go with the dagger, save the gromril hammers for your heroes (yeah 15 but guys die) and go from there. I don't have the Dwarf warband in front of me to expand on what other weapons outfit I'd bring in, but it's more the fact I'd pack out on a warband not suited for pure combat and try for a solid win that way.

Cheers all,

Ram.

Edit: P.S. As an aside, small games where your aim is to get a guy killed and routing voluntary can end inside of 5-10 minutes, really fast in other words.

[Nastyogre]

Didn't Tuomas put out in "The Editor Speaks" an article that no league should allow people to voluntarily rout unless they've lost at least two models. Not the official rules I know but its a good rule. He wrote that in response to people doing just this kind of thing. Designing warbands to run away? Bah!
I'd toss you from my campaign for doing this. No questions asked, no appeal, don't come back. Its power-gaming at its worst.
If I wasn't running the campaign, I'd take a fast warband (skaven, beastmen) and run around your beardling. I'd target your noble and take him out with overwhelming numbers. I'd encourage my fellow players to do the same. I'd also insist on wysywig when I played. You better not show any weapons other than those daggers or hammers. Play like that and you have to expect that kind of attitude.

I play a real combat dwarf force. I take 10-12 dwarves, weak equipment and let numbers grind you down. That's legit. This is beardy for no better reason than to be beardy. Does everybody play like this in your area? If do tell me so I can remember never to play there. I'd rather play the game and have fun than run away for 6 games.

Now on to your ideas. I think it would work. I can't agree with the gromil hammers, why bother? Because they penetrate armor? Who the heck uses armor? I suppose if you are waiting until well into the campaign to trot these out, when people have nothing better to spend their crowns on.

I've tried using gromil armor on leaders before. It never works out that well. It's not so good that it can handle the attacks from three opponents. Though, if you've cheesed out and gotten that much extra exp in the way of underdog bonuses perhaps you will have wound and toughness increases. A Dwarf Noble in gromil with a shield, dwarf axe (I'd still get one, gromil not needed there) and 2 wounds and a T 5 with T 6 in close combat (resiliance skill) you'd be a terrible sight.

[CobaltEarthgem]

Ram,

I want to preface this with a caution that I tried about six different ways to ask this question that didn't make me sound like I was being condescending or rude and I've not been able to find one, I'll ask the question and explain why I'm asking.

Does anyone in your area/gaming group enjoy playing these games with you?

I ask because you note that the "gunning to run" games are short in duration "5-10 minutes" so after game sequence (AGS) would actually take longer than the game each time.  I'm sure two experienced players could do an AGS in short order (say 15 minutes) so likely you could get 3 games an hour.  The "other guy" is likely going to play a less optimized warband so he'll be earning 1xp (2 for his leader) and getting less back for his buck out of the AGS.

Over the span of 2-3 hours (which is an average gaming session for my Mordheim group) he should watch you get an extremely well skilled Noble and some very decent other heroes,a buttload of GCs and likely some half advanced henchman groups all kitted out with Gromril Armor and weapos (well not all, but a good portion that can) while the "other guy" has an average experienced warband (his leader will be a bit more experienced due the "winner" bonus) with an average amount of money and equipment (or a little more than average if he been lucky and played a couple of Treasure hunts or Wyrdstone hunts while you've been "leveling").  So likely he'll go from easy wins to hard to draw after those 6-9 games.

This gets even worse in a "set up a meeting" type league.  Often you only get to play 1-3 games for a campaign week and if one or more of those consist of "drive to a meeting place, haul the warband out, set up the board, pick a scenario, arrange terrain, start game, "whoops, one of my beardlings is dead, I rout", AGS, put away terrain, put away board, put away minis, get back in car and drive home" where is the enjoyment of the "other guy"?

I just want to know if you have folks you play with who enjoy this "rapid-fire, cakewalk into a brick wall" type of Mordheim?

[ANSWER_MOD_DABANK]

I think we should let this topic "Die". A thread like this on another forum got way out of wack real quick.

Things are taken the wrong way very quickly. You guys asked some good questions about the gaming style but let's have this thread go away. I would hate to this thread (almost similiar to the one on the other forum) turn ugly and then I need to start warning or worse.

I am not mad but just preventing any potential issues. Get with me if you have any questions on the matter.

Start up another that sounds good or just wait for another one to be asked.

To answer the question on Tuomas and 2 for routing. That was the "old" rule before 25% were needed to route. The problem was large warbands were routing after losing two models and it was really quick games. Tuomas and SG modified routing for 25%. When I first started playing it was 2 models were needed to be OOA to voluntary route.

[Ram Rock Ed First]

Hey everyone,

Firstly, this is going to be a relatively long response, but as with most longer responses, so called walls of text that alot of people can't be arsed reading, it will methodically answer all or most points raised before hand. You DON'T have to read the response through, but if you don't, do not post up that it's a wall of text and that you aren't going to respond. That's called spam and worse has you ignoring the topic, the thread and insulting the poster before you all because you couldn't be bothered reading the thread response through.

Posted by: ANSWER_MOD_DABANK  

I think we should let this topic "Die". A thread like this on another forum got way out of wack real quick.

Things are taken the wrong way very quickly. You guys asked some good questions about the gaming style but let's have this thread go away. I would hate to this thread (almost similiar to the one on the other forum) turn ugly and then I need to start warning or worse.

I am not mad but just preventing any potential issues. Get with me if you have any questions on the matter.

Bank, no one has said anything untoward yet, and it is being discussed in a fairly open and calm manner. Why is there need of a warning when we all understand that the very nature of some threads will have disagreements. No one has gone off and said anything wrong yet and the discussion hasn't veered wildly off topic. Why should the thread go away if good questions on gaming style have been asked and not yet answered? You're a mod here, and respected for it, and the above post is as good a warning as to stay on track with the controversial subject  matter as any. Finally, you are allowed to link the forum and threads in question as well as name the forum. Aren't you?

I'd toss you from my campaign for doing this. No questions asked, no appeal, don't come back. Its power-gaming at its worst.

I didn't say it wasn't powergaming, I said I wanted a challenge.

We play a simple rules mod that allows anybody to run ALWAYS. No 8" and you're stuck at walking speed from then on out, so against almost every warband, the dwarves will be having to play at their very best and even then they will be hit by the entirety of the opposing warband in a single turn. Against Elves or skaven who just walk backwards and fire at you and then every other round run away it becomes a necessary skill to try and herd the opponent into a corner where you can mob them. It's actually damned hard to pull off. You'd toss me from your campaign without bothering to play the game well, labelling me as an unsavoury player that is not there for fun. Why am I playing the game other then for fun?

If I wasn't running the campaign, I'd take a fast warband (skaven, beastmen) and run around your beardling. I'd target your noble and take him out with overwhelming numbers. I'd encourage my fellow players to do the same. I'd also insist on wysywig when I played. You better not show any weapons other than those daggers or hammers. Play like that and you have to expect that kind of attitude.

You have to get to the Noble first. You're making the assumption that I will stuff up and ALLOW you to get to the Noble. It basically becomes a proper tactical challenge to both sides as as the dwarves I'd have to block the charge arcs going to the Noble yet at the same time not allow the noble to be exposed to any overall attacks or the beardlings et al to be left out on their own. WYSIWYG is not too much of an issue, armoured dwarf and then the weapons you want, a Hammer and then one of any other weapon type you'd be packing. Insisiting on WYSIWYG goes both ways and I can see you are trying to throw it in as a means to try and discourage the play style the warband adopts in the initial battles.

I play a real combat dwarf force. I take 10-12 dwarves, weak equipment and let numbers grind you down. That's legit. This is beardy for no better reason than to be beardy. Does everybody play like this in your area? If do tell me so I can remember never to play there. I'd rather play the game and have fun than run away for 6 games.

You play one variation of a dwarf combat force. Saying mine at first look is not is ignoring the fact it is. It isn't being beardy when as you've pointed out you will go straight for my noble. Instead of being overly critical of how the list looks at first glance look at it in the view that I am deliberately steering away from numbers, weapons, and protection and more importantly refusing to take a single ranged weapon. You're packing 10-12 guys to start and likely outnumber me. Good. Now use that tactical acumen and engage my ENTIRE WARBAND in a SINGLE CHARGE. Being beardy and powergaming is a matter of perspective. I could counter argue that I am deliberately hamstringing myself because I am not going to abuse the Engineer or the Slayers because I want Armoured Knights and neither of those hero choices contribute well to that field of play. Do I risk a rare 12 piece of armour on a henchman that dies 1/3 of the time? Likewise witha rare 11 weapon? No, I stick it in inventory and wait till they level up.

Now on to your ideas. I think it would work. I can't agree with the gromil hammers, why bother? Because they penetrate armor? Who the heck uses armor? I suppose if you are waiting until well into the campaign to trot these out, when people have nothing better to spend their crowns on.

Shields actually have saved many of our henchmen before. When your facing a boat load of skaven and they are packinga  spear, club, dagger and a shield to use with that spear, quite a few survive those wounding hits because there are so many of them. Bypassing the armour as well as scoring the concussion rule and all in a single weapon is great. Why would you not buy a gromril hammer for 9gc's? It's the best value for money weapon in the game at start up.

I've tried using gromil armor on leaders before. It never works out that well. It's not so good that it can handle the attacks from three opponents. Though, if you've cheesed out and gotten that much extra exp in the way of underdog bonuses perhaps you will have wound and toughness increases. A Dwarf Noble in gromil with a shield, dwarf axe (I'd still get one, gromil not needed there) and 2 wounds and a T 5 with T 6 in close combat (resiliance skill) you'd be a terrible sight.

I've seen it on a maxed Dwarf Lord. I've also seen it on a Dwarf with starting stats and we pumped everything we could into him for several games running and he just soaked it up. Yeah, criticals by pass armour in most cases, but making use of terrain and using tactics to manuvre into position to keep the noble alive and so as the enemy for combat has to engage most of your force at once, it's not as easy as it seems. a 3+ save, throw in the 5+ from step aside, a lucky charm against that first hit and for all of 1 skill and 80 gc's starting equipment you have one of the most resilient characters in the game.

Posted by: CobaltEarthgem  
Ram,

I want to preface this with a caution that I tried about six different ways to ask this question that didn't make me sound like I was being condescending or rude and I've not been able to find one, I'll ask the question and explain why I'm asking.

Does anyone in your area/gaming group enjoy playing these games with you?

I ask because you note that the "gunning to run" games are short in duration "5-10 minutes" so after game sequence (AGS) would actually take longer than the game each time.  I'm sure two experienced players could do an AGS in short order (say 15 minutes) so likely you could get 3 games an hour.  The "other guy" is likely going to play a less optimized warband so he'll be earning 1xp (2 for his leader) and getting less back for his buck out of the AGS.

Over the span of 2-3 hours (which is an average gaming session for my Mordheim group) he should watch you get an extremely well skilled Noble and some very decent other heroes,a buttload of GCs and likely some half advanced henchman groups all kitted out with Gromril Armor and weapos (well not all, but a good portion that can) while the "other guy" has an average experienced warband (his leader will be a bit more experienced due the "winner" bonus) with an average amount of money and equipment (or a little more than average if he been lucky and played a couple of Treasure hunts or Wyrdstone hunts while you've been "leveling").  So likely he'll go from easy wins to hard to draw after those 6-9 games.

This gets even worse in a "set up a meeting" type league.  Often you only get to play 1-3 games for a campaign week and if one or more of those consist of "drive to a meeting place, haul the warband out, set up the board, pick a scenario, arrange terrain, start game, "whoops, one of my beardlings is dead, I rout", AGS, put away terrain, put away board, put away minis, get back in car and drive home" where is the enjoyment of the "other guy"?

I just want to know if you have folks you play with who enjoy this "rapid-fire, cakewalk into a brick wall" type of Mordheim?

Okay, several points to address here:

Firstly, I'm not offended in any way by the question, I can see how people have taken it, I've also seen both sides of the arguement and the neutral middle ground from other gamers who don't post on online forums either. Your question is pertinent and I'm not going to take offense to it. If I did where would the discussion be?

I would like to make the point that you, as everyone else here and on other boards when similar concepts have arisen, make the assumption that the initial style mentioned is pure beardy powergaming. I made the response to NastyOgre above that what I have proposed is, when you take a step back - both characterful, and challenging, but is incredibly high risk. Even a new, unskilled opponent will be able to come to the conclusion that they outnumber me 3, 4 or 5 to one initially and that that means ganging up on an opponent who does not have the ability to counter you in any way because you will be moving faster and likely be packing missile weapons.

If I am power-gaming in this case it is so as I can develop the theme of my warband much more but also because I am deliberately hamstringing the warband chosen which works best as a combined arms force. Eliminating the ranged aspects makes some heroes such as the Engineer much less useful as a whole to the warband as in this case he can't take a halberd, double handed weapon or dwarf axe to start and needs a skill to use such weapons and additionally he does not have access to strength skills. You also pay more gold for him for an ability that will have no effect on the warband at all. The Slayers can't take armour, nor as dwarfs can they take the Dodge skill so until they make it to combat they have at best a lucky charm to save them from being killed before they make it into combat. I'm of 2 minds with these guys to be honest.

Players apparently don't take armour because it sucks drool through a straw. Rather, players don't take anything of less then a 5+ save normally because it doesn't do much against a double handed weapon nor against criticals and costs an arm and a leg. However, taking as much armour as you can, you suddenly see regular armour saves being made, repeatedly. Perhaps I should have named the thread "Armoured Dwarves: A Combat Challenge" or something similar. It's still combat dwarfs to me.

The issue people have is me stating that when I lose that first guy, I'll leg it. Throw in the lack of full armament of my guys and maxing my stored equipment so as I can get more of it for when I do get guys levelling up to hero status and the general opinon that teh warband build is over all purely power-gaming and beardy and you get misconbceptions coming through. It would be beardy if I did the same but took quick shot as my first skills and gave everyone a crossbow and added an engineer in and built a brick that just sat in cover and made you come to it whilst it outranged and out armoured everything you threw at it, only to counter with solid resilience in combat and solid weapons. I'm coming to you, at a full 6"'s a turn. If you want, you can kill that one guy and I'll leg it. You'll do significantlkyy better then me having 4-6 heroes, I'll do poorer with my 1. I'll get some extra exp for sure, but you'll also get more guys, better equipment and overall a much smoother warband progression. All eggs in one basket may come off as being beardy and pure-power-gaming but it isn't, especially in this case.

So to answer the initial question: Do people/players enjoy playing against me? The answer is yes. Why? Because it may come off as I power game, and I may know the rules inside out and thus apply more advanced tactics and stuff that people may call beardy but is simply making best use of terrain and model position and overall game phases not just teh battle pase, but at the same time, the people I play with also know how to p[lay the game just as well. And when we get new players in, we teach them how to play well, how to hug cover, how to set up your warband so as you can take out the entirety of the enemy's warband at once or how to inflict max damage without losing your warband as a whole. We play teh agme as a strategy tabletop skirmish game, and try to write stories linking the games, bringig in more role playing aspects so as the warbands develop in fluff as well as game play. Would you guys still kick me out now if I turned up with 3 guys and legged it at the first casualty? If so, I'd be the one calling you unfair sportsmen/women and beardy.

To an AGS with skilled experienced players done inside of 15 minutes, so long as all parties involved know the rules inside out and everyone trusts each other, you can steam roller through an AGS inside of 5 minutes or less. The fastest game we ever had was against my shadow elves and my brotehrs' skaven. a 3 elf band, with really good equipment that was set up all over the shop and routed (failed the Ld test) from the sprinting, leaping, frenzied black skaven charge with his 8 strength 5 attacks, art of silent death, web of steel and strike to injure. Ouch. 3 minutes, the entirety of the game, set up, battle, legging it, and AGS. It's Mordheim, games can go quick or they can take endless hours, it gets down to how you all play.

There's a blog I frequent for 40k, one of the top players in the U.S. who has alot of scorn heaped upon him as he comes off as an arrogant arse especially on forums. He makes the claim he will spend at max, 15 minutes playinga  full blown game of 40k at a Tournament because when he is playing in a tournament he brings his game to the table. His opponent will spend 1.5 hours moving and gaming total to his 15 minutes. The opponents usually take great offense as they feel insulted that he played so fast and yet all he did was paly a game he knows inside out. He enjoyed it and the other player chose not to because he biased his own experience with the new one against this player. The point I am trying to make here is that power-gaming is not necessarily power-gaming and may well act as an equalliser in many cases. The majority of opponents I have played in Mordheim have agreed, in an extended campaign, I have a VERY strong beginning game. If I voluntarily leg it with this band, wow, it doesn't really matter. It gets down to how you, the opponent approaches the game. You will see the warband and think "Right, this is gonna be a good game, lets see how he handles being outnumbered 4 to 1" and then you shoot one of the guys dead at range, so I run. Not my fault you didn't use the tactical advantage of numbers to wipe out my entire warband. If youc an't charge the Noble because of teh beardlings being set up in an awesome way, then once the charges have been done you shoot the noble to death and take the beardlings out in combat. It's really not that hard for you regardless of how optimised or not your warband is.

I've digressed a little bit.

So likely he'll go from easy wins to hard to draw after those 6-9 games.

Not if you the opponent play the game well he won't. Call me beardy and a power-gamer all you want, but normal warbands, when played well, will more often then not take on a power-gamed warband equally as well. 6-9 games, if I've been KOOA every game I am either dead or have so many injuries the underdog exp was not worth it.

This gets even worse in a "set up a meeting" type league.  Often you only get to play 1-3 games for a campaign week and if one or more of those consist of "drive to a meeting place, haul the warband out, set up the board, pick a scenario, arrange terrain, start game, "whoops, one of my beardlings is dead, I rout", AGS, put away terrain, put away board, put away minis, get back in car and drive home" where is the enjoyment of the "other guy"?

Again, this is all about how the opponent approaches the game. My aim is to get income so as I can get the band I WANT to develop to start happening. The opponents aim against em for the early game should be to make sure I can't do that. If he is stupid enough to allow me to voluntarily leg it off of one guy then he isn't playing well enough. If the opponent doesn't enjoy this and seeing me run away then will he enjoy wiping my whole warband out inside of 1 or two rounds? Of course he will. i can almost guarantee that said opponent whilst bemoaning how beardy I am approaching this campaign and warband, will equally dance around and brag at how he screwed my game over completely. Do I feel saddened, or peeved at the opponent for this? No. I take the licks and get him in one fo the future games.

I just want to know if you have folks you play with who enjoy this "rapid-fire, cakewalk into a brick wall" type of Mordheim?

I hope this above post has answered this for you.

It's all about perspective and playing the game well, ie, thinking about what you do as opposed to playing without considering how to approach the game, and thus the enjoyment as a whole.

I'll ask you all some questions now:

If faced with this warband, without playing a single game, would you kick me from your campaign?

Following that and taking into consideration what I have posted above, why?

If you were faced with my warband and then a Marienburger Blunderbuss Themed BOOM warband say:

Captain hammer 63
2 Champs hammer 76
2 Youngbloods hammer 36
7 marksmen with blunderbuss and hammer 406
581gc's

On one hand you have this themed Dwarf combat warband with 3 guys, no equipment to speak of, 1 noble and 2 beardlings looking like they are legging it at the first sign of trouble, on the other you have a warband which will bring holy slaughter against anyone foolish enough to clump up in the narrow alley ways that mordheim is famous for. How would you react against both players?

Yes, these are slightly off topic questions, but are here for relevence to some of the points made above, not just by myself.

Ram.

[Ram Rock Ed First]

To The Midgame with the Dwarf Warband as I've mentioned: I would likely aim to arm everyone with a Pavise. Arranged in such a way:

 _
/  \
\_/

You can get the models moving and hiding behind their pavises and only be vulnerable to missile fire coming in from directly above or from within initiative range. It's an advanced tactic that I had released on the previous forums here that had mixed reactions also. You need to remember that 6 guys max will be holding Pavises, all heroes, meaning the henchies are left to fend for themselves. The Pavise Turtle is interesting as it means people can't just leap over you and land in amongst you all as base to base contact (The pavise gives you cover against all missile attacks, this was further discussed as if it gives you cover against all missile attacks what if you are surrounded from alls ides and shot at at the same time? So, one assumes the front arc. Modelled in the right way you get angled facings that would overlap and give you cover as in the diagram above, as a hexagonal. You're hiding behind the cover granted by the Pavise, and because it rings in everyone and it's a wall of steel in effect you get dwarfs in base contact hiding behind their pavises and not being exposed due to dwarfs behind hiding behind their pavises) means you are saved from such a trick.

The beauty of this tactic is that dwarfs are not encombered by armour, but other warbands can use the exact same tactic. It makes sniper Elves nasty as even in the open they are just sucking up the cover. Mercenaries with the Pavises and blunderbusses also give you a solid 16" threat range that can't be ignored as the Mercs are so clumped together the enemy need to approach the attack from another angle ingame.

Skills wise, Extra Tough is a nice one, but so is strike to injure and step aside is standard at this stage of the game on the armoured dwarfs. Most of teh Dwarf Special Skills increase their resilience so are quite self explanatory. Resilient is useful also, but one or two with mighty blow and strongman is a definite direction to head, though equally a Halberd and Mighty Blow could be useful too. There aren't many of you fully encased, so all the added survivability you can get is a bonus. You can't quite plan too far ahead with skills/stat advances and need to respond as they come in, as we all know, so where to? Weapons of course.

Weapon-wise, flexibility is the key. Initiative won't be high but if by chance some random dwarf gets a high initiative, a spear coupled with some crimson shade could be very useful to the warband. A Halberd with Mighty Blow could be surprisingly useful more so because the strongman skill is a whole skill by itself. Dwarfs have low initiative so strongman isn't necessarily needed, but even so it depends on who gets the skill.

equipment: Holy Relics, Elven Cloaks. Expensive as, but useful, especially the cloaks, and especially if you are packing a pavisse as well, -2 in the open to hit at range (-3 if over half range, -4 if the firer has moved) is tasty.

Randomness: It'd be tempting to, assuming an Alchemists Handbook is ever found to turn a Dwarf into a combat mage. A bit of flight and teh sword of Rezhelbel with Luck of Shemtek would be nice. Restrict oneself to using silver arrows of arha in combat to represent a whole amount of combat fun.

Ram.

[ANSWER_MOD_DABANK]

Ram

No need to link it and this is a warning to steer clear of that type of situation on this forum as it won't be tolerated in any shape or fashion. I know nothing has been said yet but I am trying to prevent it and if it goes anything further than this and things get mentioned like I saw on the other thread then this will be a serious situation and will be dealt with promptly.

My post on this topic was to stay ahead of an issue as your post on the other forum was in the same light and this stuff is not needed here or there. I believe this is perfectly understandable if not PM me.

Also, I made it clear that no more questions on this thread. This will only stir the pot.

You noted it was starting to get off topic. Your statements in red.

I'll ask you all some questions now:

If faced with this warband, without playing a single game, would you kick me from your campaign?
Following that and taking into consideration what I have posted above, why?

If you were faced with my warband and then a Marienburger Blunderbuss Themed BOOM warband say:

Captain hammer 63
2 Champs hammer 76
2 Youngbloods hammer 36
7 marksmen with blunderbuss and hammer 406
581gc's

On one hand you have this themed Dwarf combat warband with 3 guys, no equipment to speak of, 1 noble and 2 beardlings looking like they are legging it at the first sign of trouble, on the other you have a warband which will bring holy slaughter against anyone foolish enough to clump up in the narrow alley ways that mordheim is famous for. How would you react against both players?

Yes, these are slightly off topic questions, but are here for relevence to some of the points made above, not just by myself.

[ANSWER_MOD_DABANK]

Fallen: It is up to the gaming group to decide. Not me. How things are played in my group are how we play things. That is it pretty simple.

Please stear clear of calling or sugggesting people are or might be hypocritical and etc as this incites flaming and can cause baiting. This is a warning.


The major factor of any games workshop game is the player choosing what they use. Exactly. To tell someone that they're "Doing it wrong" for any games workshop game is quite frankly hypocritical.