List of flawed ships

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Endeavors need 6+ prow and 90' turns. It's that simple.

Tyrant just make everything 45 cm and 190 points.

Dictator, well, to be honest, while it is expensive, I think the points come out right. It is an effective ordnance ship which can launch and fire torps at the same target.

[commander]

Dictator cost 40 points more than a lunar, only for having S2 lances swapped for LB and +1 turret??? very pricey.

[Plaxor]

Updated

@everyone; please vote on any ship/option your name isn't listed.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Dictator cost 40 points more than a lunar, only for having S2 lances swapped for LB and +1 turret??? very pricey.

Yup. Unfortunately AC are more expensive especially on the side of IN. Even if you knock it down to 210, it's still 30 points more.

[commander]

IN:
Oberon: Up range to 60cm [Admiral d Artagnan, RCgothic (350pts), Plaxor (345), Sigoroth(355)]
Retribution: Reduction in lance range [RCgothic], +10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic]
Apocalypse: no penalty for firing up to 45cm, shooting at 60cm is still critical hit. [Admiral d Artagnan, RCgothic, Plaxor]
Emperor: Nothing [Sigoroth], Increase by 10pts [RCgothic, BaronIveagh, Plaxor]
Exorcist: Increase LBs to 6, increase cost [Sigoroth, RCgothic, BaronIveagh], Don’t touch [Horizon, Plaxor (no increase in LBs, others fine)]
Avenger: Drop Cost [Horizon], 8WBs to 45cm [RCgothic], FP 20 [Plaxor]
Armageddon: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic]
Mars: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic, Plaxor]
Overlord: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic], add 60cm range option [Sigoroth, Plaxor, RCgothic]
Dictator: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, Horizon, Plaxor, RCgothic]
Defiant: 6+ prow[Sigoroth, RCgothic, Horizon, Plaxor], Use Horizon's Profile [ RCgothic, Horizon, Plaxor], Delete Ship [Sigoroth]
Firestorms: Drop by 5pts [Sigoroth, RCgothic, Plaxor], Don’t touch [Fracas]
Falchion: Increase turrets to 2 [Sigoroth, RCgothic]

IN:
Overlord: Side WBs fp12@45cm
Retribution: Side WBs fp18@45cm
Tyrant: 180 base cost
Endeavor/Endurance/Defiant: 6+ prow, maintains 90' turns[/color]

Well,
Oberon: Always played it at R60 for 355. Fine ship.
Retribution: FP18 R45.
Apocalypse: no penalty for firing up to 45cm, shooting at 60cm is still critical hit but no damage.
Emperor: fine as it is.
Exorcist: Increase LBs to 6, increase cost.
Avenger: FP20 R45; we are talking Repulsive equivalent here.
Armageddon: Drop by 10 points
Mars: Drop by 10 points
Overlord: Side WBs fp12@45cm
Dictator: Drop by 10 points
Tyrant: 180 base cost + 10 points for all R45
Firestorms: Drop by 5pts
Falchion: Increase turrets to 2
Endeavor/Endurance/Defiant: 6+ prow, maintains 90' turns
+ Vengeance class GC: add S6 torpedoes to all as an option
seems fine to me.

[lastspartacus]

I played against an admech list with 4 endeavors in it.  They proved quite alot more resilient actually with the armored prows!
I was very pleased.  I still believe str4 torps would make them just right, but that may necessitate a price increase?
Compared to a Lunar, is +2 lances per broadside, a shield, turret, and 2hp worth +60 points?

[BaronIveagh]

When did I vote to increase the Emperor by 10 points???

Can't say I have an opinion on them, I rarely take IN BBs, they're mostly too slow.  As far as I know, the Emp is fine.

(I also noticed my idea on the Defiant was not listed)

[horizon]

Since 4lb on a CL will never get accepted I guess.


Styx?
pfft, I use it 275 but if you can get it at 260 I'll nod along.

[BaronIveagh]

Since 4lb on a CL will never get accepted I guess.


Styx?
pfft, I use it 275 but if you can get it at 260 I'll nod along.

Yeah, but a speed of 25 should be fine.  As far as the LB 4 on a CL: I can dream, dammit.  Imagine, real navel strategies could be used from wars after the Russo-Japanese War of 1905.  *sigh*  (And before anyone says 'But...but...Jutland!' Most WWI battles at sea were primarily about maneuver.  AND there was a aircraft carrier (I would call it a LB of 1 since it was a seaplane tender) of the period present with the English fleet, the HMS Engadine.

And when I say maneuver...



I mean maneuver! 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Maneuver...well yes, I guess you can call it a maneuver where during the encounter A's subunit retreats back to his line of battle after getting a beating and then when the the line of battle starts hitting the B's subunit, then B goes back to his line of battle. Then shooting begins and A and B both get hammered and B pulls out during the night bec his confidence is shot.

[RCgothic]

Everyone should remember they can vote for multiple options. I also think that in order to make progress, there's going to have to be compromise on a few issues. If you really object to an idea that's fine, but it would be helpful if we could come to unanimous decisions once a general concensus has been reached.

Anyway, my thoughts on the updated list:

Chaos:
Acheron: Increase lances to 60cm @+10 pts [Sigoroth]
Could someone do the math for how this compares to the other vessels please?

Retaliator: 3LB per side WBs at 45cm [Admiral d Artagnan, Sigoroth, RCgothic]
More opinions needed Yes/No/Other

Devestation: Possibly increase by 10pts [Plaxor, Sigoroth, RCgothic]
Now that the Dev is getting a range reduction to 45cm, I propose we put this one on hold until it's been play tested in its current form.

Infidel: Give two turrets [Sigoroth, RCgothic]
More opinions needed Yes/No/Other

Iconoclast: Reduce by 5pts [RCgothic, Plaxor]
More opinions needed Yes/No/Other

Idolator: Revise with new Fraal tech [Plaxor, Sigoroth], Drop by 5 points [Sigoroth, Plaxor, RCgothic]
I think I'll go for the drop points option

GCs:
Add several upgrade options [Sigoroth, Plaxor, Commander]
This could be interesting. I'd like to see what the options are.

IN:
Oberon: Up range to 60cm [Admiral d Artagnan, RCgothic (pts dependent on Emp), Plaxor (345), Sigoroth(355), Commander (355)]
Surely we're just quibbling over price now, and 60cm is going through? 350 is a midpoint, but I think it should be 20 less than an Emperor. If the Emperor goes up to 375, then 355. Otherwise 345.

Retribution: Reduction in lance range [RCgothic], +10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic]
Ok, I withdraw my proposal for reduced lance range. It will need the +10pts to 355 now I think.

Apocalypse: no penalty for firing up to 45cm, shooting at 60cm is still critical hit. [Admiral d Artagnan, RCgothic, Plaxor, Commander]Emperor: Nothing [Sigoroth], Increase by 10pts [RCgothic, Plaxor]
Come on, we're near concensus on this one. I think definitely 45cm, and definitely a critical hit over 45cm, but I'm not sure about the convoluted "Critical hit but not ALL of a critical hit" thing going on. Surely it would be better if it took a Port/SB Weapons offline Critical to whichever/both broadsides fire at over 60? Good suggestion? More opinions needed Yes/No/Other

Emperor: Nothing [Sigoroth], Increase by 10pts [RCgothic, BaronIveagh, Plaxor]
I still think this needs to go up by 10pts to make it slightly less attractive. Could we have a few more opinions pls.

Exorcist: Increase LBs to 6, increase cost [Sigoroth, RCgothic, BaronIveagh, Commander], Don’t touch [Horizon, Plaxor (no increase in LBs, others fine)]
It should go to 6LBs because it has 4 LB hardpoints. 4 just isn't enough for the model. Increase in cost to compensate.

Avenger: Drop Cost [Horizon], 8WBs to 45cm [RCgothic], FP 20 [Plaxor, Commander (45cm)]
You don't think FP20 is excessive? Even the Retribution won't have FP20 broadside hardpoints. The other GCs have about FP8 per double hardpoint. I don't think the Avenger's problem is its firepower, its problem is its range and role. Giving it GC refits may help (so I'd like to see some suggestions), or upping its range (as suggested). FP20 is excessive. Neither will dropping its price help, because it's already in cruiser territory and being a GC has to be worth something extra.

Armageddon: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic, Commander]
More opinions pls, Yes/No/Other.

Mars: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic, Plaxor, Commander]
We're near concensus on this one. Couple more Yes/No/Others pls.

Overlord: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic], add 60cm range option [Sigoroth, Plaxor, RCgothic]
Without 60cm, it's just a Battlecruiser Tyrant, and needs a price drop. With the Dictator at 210 there's some clear space to drop the price into at 225pts. But I do think it should have a 60cm option, at +10pts for FP10 or +20pts for FP12.

Defiant:Use Horizon's Profile [ RCgothic, Horizon, Plaxor], Delete Ship [Sigoroth]
I really don't want to delete this ship. With FP4, Torps and LBs it has strong focusable forward firepower comparable to a Dauntless. I could perhaps see a price drop for this ship to 120pts in line with the others.

I'd also propose a motion to increase Torp Firepower to 4 to bring all variants up to 130pts. Not sure about this, but I'd like to see it discussed.

Firestorms: Drop by 5pts [Sigoroth, RCgothic, Plaxor, Commander], Don’t touch [Fracas]

More opinions Yes/No/Other please.

Falchion: Increase turrets to 2 [Sigoroth, RCgothic]
More opinions Yes/No/Other please.

[BaronIveagh]

I wouldn't say Scheer's confidence was shot.  Scheer had never intended to fight the entire British fleet in a head on battle 'except under circumstances unfavorable to the enemy'.  That he was able to fight a head-on battle, and inflict a surprising amount of damage in the process before withdrawing, shows considerable skill.  

And the map above is only part of the action.  It more or less started around 5 pm, and more or less ended around 2 or 3 am.

And I never voted for the Emperor point change.  


Chaos:
Acheron: Increase lances to 60cm @+10 pts [Sigoroth]

No opinion.  I don't really use them.

Retaliator: 3LB per side WBs at 45cm [Admiral d Artagnan, Sigoroth, RCgothic]

No opinion.  I don't really use them.

Devestation: Possibly increase by 10pts [Plaxor, Sigoroth, RCgothic]

Should hold off on this until we see how new stats play out.  If they're ditching the 45 cm idea though, yes.

Infidel: Give two turrets [Sigoroth, RCgothic]

No opinion.  I don't really use them.

Iconoclast: Reduce by 5pts [RCgothic, Plaxor]

Hell yes!

Idolator: Revise with new Fraal tech [Plaxor, Sigoroth], Drop by 5 points [Sigoroth, Plaxor, RCgothic]

Point drop.  I dislike the 'new' Fra'al.

GCs:
Add several upgrade options [Sigoroth, Plaxor, Commander]

Agree.

IN:
Oberon: Up range to 60cm [Admiral d Artagnan, RCgothic (pts dependent on Emp), Plaxor (345), Sigoroth(355), Commander (355)]

Agree (pts dependent on Emp)

Retribution: Reduction in lance range [RCgothic], +10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic]

+10 points

Apocalypse: no penalty for firing up to 45cm, shooting at 60cm is still critical hit. [Admiral d Artagnan, RCgothic, Plaxor, Commander]

Agree.

Emperor: Nothing [Sigoroth], Increase by 10pts [RCgothic, Plaxor]

Never use them, and tend to primary them.  Don't see a need to change them.

Exorcist: Increase LBs to 6, increase cost [Sigoroth, RCgothic, BaronIveagh, Commander], Don’t touch [Horizon, Plaxor (no increase in LBs, others fine)]

I agree with myself on this.  

Avenger: Drop Cost [Horizon], 8WBs to 45cm [RCgothic], FP 20 [Plaxor, Commander (45cm)]

I'd increase range to 45 cm or give her +5 speed.  She's supposed to close with the enemy, but can't ever seem to.

Armageddon: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic, Commander]

Yes!

Mars: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic, Plaxor, Commander]

I'm not a big fan of this, but will go along with it if Exorcist gets a boost.

Overlord: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic], add 60cm range option [Sigoroth, Plaxor, RCgothic]

I agree with both points.  This ship is underused.

Defiant:Use Horizon's Profile [ RCgothic, Horizon, Plaxor], Delete Ship [Sigoroth]

Increase speed to 25.  Possible options: Torps (4)/LB increase as a possible purchasable upgrade.  (I know how much hate AC have, but I have similar levels of hate for NC and necrons)


Firestorms: Drop by 5pts [Sigoroth, RCgothic, Plaxor, Commander], Don’t touch [Fracas]

Increase lance range.

Falchion: Increase turrets to 2 [Sigoroth, RCgothic]

Agreed.

[Vaaish]

Oberon: 60cm weapons would be fine with a points increase. It's only found in one list and can't easily combine with toys like the dominator or the CG and almost requires a second carrier to keep up your ordnance.

Retribution: Again, I don't want to see the point value go up. It's considered somewhat underpowered so it makes little sense to increase it's cost without doing anything else.

Emperor: do NOT touch it's points. This ship is fine as it stands. It would be just as attractive at 10 points more and does nothing to bring the ships that actually have issues with their points down to a level that's more attractive if you want more variety. Just because a ship is used often doesn't make it unbalanced or necessitate nerfing it to make it show up less.

Exorcist: leave it as is, it does a nice job alternating with the Vengeance and provides a good alternative to the Mars. If you want to add an option to increase LB for more points that's fine, but don't change the base stats.

Avenger: drop cost. It's just too expensive for what it brings.

Armageddon: I don't find this ship problematic at its current cost and 10 points won't really change the dynamic much.

Firestorm: cheaper would be nice.

Falchion: extra turret would be a nice boost to bring them up to the sword levels.

[Sigoroth]

Everyone should remember they can vote for multiple options. I also think that in order to make progress, there's going to have to be compromise on a few issues. If you really object to an idea that's fine, but it would be helpful if we could come to unanimous decisions once a general concensus has been reached.

Anyway, my thoughts on the updated list:

Chaos:
Acheron: Increase lances to 60cm @+10 pts [Sigoroth]
Could someone do the math for how this compares to the other vessels please?

Well, for the same price as a Hades it would have the same firepower at 60cm. At 45cm it will be able to focus 6WB more, though a Hades will be able to put 10WB into a secondary target (fore/side targets; not hard to get). So a trade-off of focus for firepower here. When there is a target in all fire arcs in the 30-45cm range band the Hades has roughly +5WBe firepower. At 30cm or less this jumps up to +8WBe firepower when using all broadsides, only +4WBs when just the fore/side. So generally speaking, the Hades has the advantage in weight of fire though it has less focus.

The real advantage of the Acheron would be that it goes abeam to achieve this end, rather than closing. This combined with its extra turret make it more survivable. The Hades closing does however make it more likely to use its off-side firepower.

Of course, all the above regarding comparisons at 45cm or less is the same as we have now, just that the Acheron does it for 10 pts less than it is now proposed. So the only effect would be to increase the cost, increasing the VPs of the ship and getting 2 extra lance shots for the few times that you're in the 45-60cm range band. Presumably you would want to sit in the 30-45cm range band with this ship (as now) to get the extra firepower. So just a couple of extra shots at the start, and maybe a few incidental shots as the vagaries of the game play out.

Devestation: Possibly increase by 10pts [Plaxor, Sigoroth, RCgothic][/color]
Now that the Dev is getting a range reduction to 45cm, I propose we put this one on hold until it's been play tested in its current form.

Note: I do not support a price increase. I support a range decrease. I feel this better satisfies all discrepancies. I do not feel both nerfs are warranted. Any residual imbalance compared to IN CVs should be addressed in their profiles.

GCs:
Add several upgrade options [Sigoroth, Plaxor, Commander]
This could be interesting. I'd like to see what the options are.

Well, I was thinking a refit table with different prow and dorsal options, individually costed, from which one refit could be taken, with the caveat that they must be modelled on the ship. Another optional caveat would be that no 2 CGs could have the same refit, as they were experimental, considered failures, and never standardised.

So the refits would look something like this:

Prow

Frontal armour plates - +35(?) pts: added to enable the cruiser to join the line, blah, blah. Modelled with plasticard/green stuff.
Prow Torpedoes (6) - +20 pts: extra punch to help break the enemy line, blah. Drill some holes to model.
Prow Nova Cannon - +45(?) pts: experiment designed to reinvigorate these CGs as fleet support vessels, power management proved too difficult, with the result that few were given this refit. Could add a plastic NC in place of the front spike or just use that as the NC.
Prow sensor array - +20 pts: +1 Ld. Attempt to convert a CG into a C&C vessel; failed. Model prow with aerials as per Empy.

Note: NC/torps go offline when the ship suffers a prow critical.

Dorsal

Lance battery (str 2, rng 60cm, LFR) - +45 pts: attempt to up-gun CGs. Costly process due to overcoming power grid shortfalls. Model with Chaos or IN lance turrets (suggestion).
Weapon Battery (str 9, rng 45cm, LFR) - +40 pts: As above, model with Chaos tri-barrel turrets (suggestion).
Bombardment Cannon (str 6, rng 30cm, LFR) - +40 pts: As above, can't fire simultaneously with ships other weaponry, BMs placed by previous fire do interfere. Model with SM BC turrets (suggestion).

IN:
Emperor: Nothing [Sigoroth], Increase by 10pts [RCgothic, BaronIveagh, Plaxor]
I still think this needs to go up by 10pts to make it slightly less attractive. Could we have a few more opinions pls.

Oberon: Up range to 60cm [Admiral d Artagnan, RCgothic (pts dependent on Emp), Plaxor (345), Sigoroth(355), Commander (355)][/color]
Surely we're just quibbling over price now, and 60cm is going through? 350 is a midpoint, but I think it should be 20 less than an Emperor. If the Emperor goes up to 375, then 355. Otherwise 345.

With other changes to IN CVs, the Ret and the Oberon, the Emp would no longer either be a "must take" because of weak CVs, nor a tremendously attractive option compared to the alternatives. It would simply be an option for those that want to use AC instead of guns. Also, upping the cost of this ship would go some way towards reducing the effect of nerfing the Dev (since it would just be a nerf each) and would be odd since we're going to some trouble to decrease the cost of the Styx.

As for the cost on the Oberon, I know that at +20 pts we'd be paying over the odds compared to the Emperor, since more off-side firepower is wasted and it benefits less from the 5 pts a-boat upgrade and you could take an Emp and gunboat instead of a Oberon and CV. However I don't mind this. With the Ret getting a range decrease the Obi would be the premiere long range fire platform. If the Ret went up to 355 with the change then I don't see anything wrong with these 2 ships being direct equivalents.

Apocalypse: no penalty for firing up to 45cm, shooting at 60cm is still critical hit. [Admiral d Artagnan, RCgothic, Plaxor, Commander]
Come on, we're near concensus on this one. I think definitely 45cm, and definitely a critical hit over 45cm, but I'm not sure about the convoluted "Critical hit but not ALL of a critical hit" thing going on. Surely it would be better if it took a Port/SB Weapons offline Critical to whichever/both broadsides fire at over 60? Good suggestion? More opinions needed Yes/No/Other

Actually, I prefer this idea. You can shoot at long range, but you'll blow out any guns that try it. Repair as normal. If you manage to shoot at a target in the 45-60cm range band on both sides then it's 2 crits, one each side.

Apart from this, I strongly suggest the dorsal WBs go up to str 9. I have no idea why WBs are made so weak on BBs. I can see it on the Desolator, since it's CB level firepower on all hardpoints except prow (BB strength torps) which is presumably due to it being a fast BB. On the prow of the Emp/Obi then this can be rationalised as being due to the space taken for the sensor array. As for the dorsal hardpoint one can only imagine that the designers wanted the prow and dorsal to add neatly to 10. Rationalisation from a fluff PoV could come in the form of "it's only a carrier, no need to put premiere weaponry on it". For the Apocalypse however there is no excuse. Just as the Ret gets its guns plumped up so too should the Apocalypse. Strength 6 is woeful on a gunship such as this.

Avenger: Drop Cost [Horizon], 8WBs to 45cm [RCgothic], FP 20 [Plaxor, Commander (45cm)]
You don't think FP20 is excessive? Even the Retribution won't have FP20 broadside hardpoints. The other GCs have about FP8 per double hardpoint. I don't think the Avenger's problem is its firepower, its problem is its range and role. Giving it GC refits may help (so I'd like to see some suggestions), or upping its range (as suggested). FP20 is excessive. Neither will dropping its price help, because it's already in cruiser territory and being a GC has to be worth something extra.

I don't think it's excessive. Potentially quite powerful, but not excessive. Don't forget it has to close with the enemy to get into 30cm range, which is quite nasty with its soft nose. The Vengeance has 16WBe at 45-60cm range. In fact, the Vengeance WB hardpoints amount to 10 at 45cm, the Avengers would just be 10 at 30cm (each).

I'd also propose a motion to increase Torp Firepower to 4 to bring all variants up to 130pts. Not sure about this, but I'd like to see it discussed.

I prefer str 2, for the character of it. Apart from just preference, I think that str 2 fits the process better. This ship has half the firepower/shields of a line cruiser with three quarters the hits and full turrets at two thirds cost. The upside to the lowered firepower is meant to be the manoeuvrability. Of course, half of 6 torps is 3 torps. This is an uneven amount, so they were given 2WB@30cmLFR as compensation for the loss of the 3rd torp, which I think fits the ship well. If you were to give it 4 torps then I would say that it would have to lose the prow WBs. Of the 2 options I prefer to leave it as is. Just give them (End/End) 6+ prows, with no other change at all. Perhaps make the Defiant 4 torps.

[Sigoroth]

Retribution: Again, I don't want to see the point value go up. It's considered somewhat underpowered so it makes little sense to increase it's cost without doing anything else.

Well this is in reference to a Ret with 18WB@45cm. The current Ret is so cheap because it doesn't really use what it's got. A more streamlined design that sacrifices range (not used) for an increase in firepower (used!) should get a bump in cost. I actually think that only +10 pts is conservative. Original Ret price was 365 with the Emp at 345. I'm sure that everyone would've been quite happy to play the Ret at original cost if it got 18WB@45cmL+R. That's without an increase in price of the Emp/Obi and without a decrease in its own cost.