Please advise me with my Dwarf list.

[pw]

Hi All, I'm trying to finalise my Dwarf 'shopping list' (the figures I want to have painted). At present it'd include:

2 Handgunners, 2 Trollslayers, 2 Rangers, 6 Warriors, 2 Cannons (i.e. 4 bases in total), 2 Flame Cannons (2 bases in total), 2 Gyrocopters, 4 or 5 characters.

I make that 1650 points without characters. My question is, what should I add/remove? Of this I don't own one of the Gyrocopters so if 2 would be unusual I'd be pleased to drop one of them. If I add in a general, a hero and a runesmith that hits 1975 leaving a little space for upgrades. I'm concerned that the 6 warmachines offer some pretty soft targets that practically take me to the break point (and if I/when manage to get the Trollslayers killed then I'm pretty much done for).

So, what would you add/subtract? (the trollslayers, though perhaps not the most sensible choice, need to stay as I like the models and find their use to be a satisfying puzzle for both sides of a game).

Any thoughts will be gratefully received.

[Guthwine]

I would say there are 2 ways to run the dwarves. The first is the fluffy list which pretty much is your list, including handgunners, flame cannons and gyrocopters and the other one is the effective list which is all infantry (warriors/rangers/slayers) to go hide in terrain.

I personally am a fan of massing handgunners but they really are not that good. (they deserve a 5+ save! ) Same goes for the gyrocopters (like the old rules better with it carrying a small cannon+bounce), that points are better invested in Rangers or Warriors.

I would say it really depends on your environment of gamers. If you face armies including 6(+) knights + 2(+) light cavalry units than Id say go infantry if you face more balanced lists than the fluffy army can be lots of fun.

Alsobe prepared for alot of draws its a dwarven victory.

[pw]

The fluffy list is the one I want, my two opponents (I've only got two  ) and I have a long history of tinkering with our army lists in order to hit a balance that gives us both a good game so if my list is weak they'll will adjust theirs. Conversely, if I rock up with my six-knight empire army they'll counter that accordingly.

That said, I don't want to go over-fluffy so I'm hoping to find a list that has enough of the characterful elements while being able to hold its own. So, while I'd like a flame cannon I'll happily just have the one if two might be a handicap, same with the gyros. I suppose if I buy myself another couple of units of warriors I'd have a little list-building flexibility. Or would two units of Rangers make more sense?

[azrael71]

Have you read the dwarven command article?
Some good pointers in there.

I think you have too many characters, but that is my play style and it can be a great asset or lead to total failure.
I prefer fluffy lists and as a result lose a lot but have a lot of fun in the mean time.
Thing is, each person prefers their own style of playing that combined with it be a chance based game means there really isn't such a thing as an ideal list (as the WWW showed).

If you can get your artillery/shooters in a good position with your warriors and rangers tucked away in cover and you use your copters as mobile cannon platforms you should do OK.
Or you could play like I do, charge the dragon with the copters and leave my infantry stood out in the open, with the artillery on the base line

If it isn't playing how you like Dwarves are cheap enough on ebay to modify the army with little extra investment

[pw]

Thanks. Where would I find the Dwarven Command article? I'll have to hunt through my files, I'm guessing I'll have it saved...

EDIT: Just found 'The Evolution of a Dwarf Commando' article, certainly another vote for abandoning warmachines (which fits with about half of my experiences fighting against dwarfs too).

[azrael71]

If not drop me a pm

[Guthwine]

The list I am playing at the moment is:

8 Warriors
4 Handgunners
2 Troll Slayers
2 Cannons
1 Flame cannon
1xGeneral
2x Runesmiths

How machine heavy you wanna be really comes down to personal taste. I usually like to run flame cannons in pairs and almost never use the gyros.

[azrael71]

I like to use the gyros for the old buttocks of death

[pw]

What in Heaven's name are 'the buttocks of death'?

[azrael71]

If you don't know that then kindly leave the forum sir!
Basically you place one unit 1cm behind your enemy (flyers are usually best for this), then charge the offending unit in the front (you can switch these around but basically you are making a sandwich with your foes as the filling).
You only need to win combat res by 1 point to drive them back into your troops and hence destroy the unit.

I am sure better tacticians on here will correct me but you get the general idea

[pw]

The tactic, good Sir, is familiar. The terminology, is not! 

[Haranin]

Go hide in the woods? Bah that is tree hugging dress wearing pansies!

No need to go running about in all directions like a gobbo, but a solid battleline can cause your opponent a world of hurt. New fangeled toys might look pretty in hold, but cold iron rules them all.

Not sure if the shortcuts will work, but poke around in the WM section for my recent battlereport

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/sg/forum/index.php?topic=2415.msg20001#msg20001

and a much older discussion regarding the dwarf list

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/sg/forum/index.php?topic=279.msg5625#msg5625

To sum up, there are two theories on how to play dwarves- one is that cannon, thunders and flame cannon are cool and you should load up on cool toys.  The other is that all those cool toys, trollslayers included, have little armor and sometimes few wounds.... such that the enemy doesn't need to kill any warriors to break you.

Before I played dwarves, I played empire. The easiest dwarf army to beat is one including 50% by unit count of non warriors- you can hunt down every non warrior stand with your knights. Warriors can exchange one for one with most knight units. The key to any warmaster game is creating unfair tactical fights. Why would say combined arms empire even borther fighting your warriors, when they can destroy you with out ever touching a warrior stand? Both your and Guthwine's lists can be broken with out engaging the warriros.

The enemy can pretty much always dictate the point of contact against a dwarf list. If you are mostly warriors wtih a few rangers, he has no easy targets... and must engage 4 wound, 4+ save stands.

The goal of the game is to kill half the enemy and avoid lossing half your units. Every unit you have that is not a warrior is an easy kill for the enemy.

Run the stats; thunders just cost to much for the killing power... particularly when you factor in their weakness in close combat. Also, if you have a mixed force, your battleline is pinned down to the guns. If you move, you invite being defeated in detail.

No need to hid in the woods with pure warriors/rangers- just protect your flanks. A full brigade of warriors in column fears little.

Figure out if you can make shooting work and how aggressive you are. I have heard some in Europe have got the shooty dwarves to work. I have had quite a bit of sucess with the pure CC lists.

Heck, I had two cannon units in my last games, and despite catching one player with infantry deployed in columns, I would have been better off with another unit of warriors!

Good luck , drink your beer and Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mânu!

(see, he says the AXES of the dwarves are upon you, not the gunpoweder.....

[pw]

Thanks for that detailed advice, anyone who can write if Dwarfish (Dwarvish?) deserves attention! Your description of the weakness of my suggested list fits well with my experience of games as an Empire player fighting against Dwarfs (break the little things first being the obvious move when faced with almost unbreakable brigades of warriors). That said, I'm not sure I'd really enjoy playing with an army that was maxed out on Warriors/Rangers. I guess I'll have to give both styles of play a go and see which entertains me the most. Hmmmmm.... lots to think about so far. The solution is probably to get myself a 2500 point army!

[Lex]

Being a slightly addled greybeard I can still remember my younger days in the field.....

1) Dwarfs dont hide, but we understand the value of broken ground and slopes, being more closely in tune with earhtly matters then the other races
2) Many a flanking force of cavalry has found moving through a chokepoint on a flank a challenge when under fire from your handgunners, do not discount the penetrative force of a dwarven gun shot bullet
3) Unless you fight on home ground and have decently prepared positions, dont bother to play a defensive batlle, cold iron and cold steel will win you yér battles, bring it to the enemy
4) Any half-decent guncrew will spit in their hands and put their shoulders under to move guns with the rest of the line, no new-fangled horse-drawn guns needed, just trust their commander to put in a well placed boot when needed !

Ivan

[Haranin]

Side note on command; don't borther with the hero. The Runesmith is a HERO, not a wizard. For +10 points you get the antimagic ability.

Read closely the Living rule book update floating around this website. Runesmiths are range limited, not the table as per the basic rulebook. Therefore, it is useful having two runesmiths. Lets you put your general in charge of two or three brigades, each runesmith can take a less important brigade, and provide antimagic coverage over most if not all your units. One runesmith can't cut it anymore in 1500+ games. The enemy wizards will always have gaps to exploit for getting spells off.

+20 points (upping two heros to runesmiths) is well spent to negate most enemy magic.