Should I get involved with Epic Armageddon (or BFG?)

[Snakeb1te]

Hi I'm new to these forums and am looking for advice.

I originally posted this on the relic news forums where I've recieved a fair bit of help relating to W40k in the past, but specialist games is another matter, and it doesn't seem that there are many active there who know much about it. So I decided to do some research myself, and stumbled upon this forum!

I hope its ok, but instead of reposting the entire topic again here I'll just link you to the topic on RNF.

I value all help greatly, because I will really dive headfirst into the hobby I choose.

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?259579-Should-I-get-involved-with-Epic-Armageddon

[Guthwine]

First of all, welcome to the forums!

Complete Rules? The resources available on the GW site are many, but are they really the full rules and all I'll need to play the game?

You get everything you need to play from the GW site.

Difficult/loophole Rules?

There are not more than in any other games, the epic community does and did a great job bringing the rules together and even expanding them.

Range of Products/armies: I

Yeah that is kind of a problem but again here the epic community is working to expand the range of miniatures.

For Epic and BFG related topics, I would suggest you visit the TACCOM Forums:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/index.php

[Snakeb1te]

Thanks for the swift reply.

You get everything you need to play from the GW site.

Great.

There are not more than in any other games, the epic community does and did a great job bringing the rules together and even expanding them.

Ok. This isn't too bad anyway because myself and my opponent are pretty good with house rules should something happen that we're not sure about. Should I have any further questions about the rules/clarifications needed I'll pop along here and ask some questions!

Yeah that is kind of a problem but again here the epic community is working to expand the range of miniatures.

If by that you mean creating rule books for the races I have to admit I'm not too keen, I'd rather go on what GW has made official. But if you mean that you're harrassing GW on putting some more attention into Specialist Games, such as sending them ideas you have and asking them to implement then good! But again as there are already so many rules I'd rather invent my own house rules which I'll remember better than learning new ones.


I have to say though I originally was far more keen on Epic, I feel like I'd rather join a game which has more players/community, such as BFG. Aside from that are the advtantages that BFG can field less units for battles, and have more races (even though Chaos and IN/SM are the only ones with a good variety of ships).

In any case, I now find myself leaning towards BFG because of the variety it has. I know less about BFG though so is there any info/reccommendations you can give me? Is this a better game than Epic: Armageddon?

Thanks.

[Guthwine]

If by that you mean creating rule books for the races I have to admit I'm not too keen, I'd rather go on what GW has made official.

Well they wont make something official they no longer support, but there is a very active playtesting community and thousands of topics, where rule changes get discussed so no list gets out of balance.
But its not only rulewise, there are also some excellent proxys available for other 40k races that did not make it into the rulebook.
Like the exodus warrior edenites:
http://www.exoduswars.com/exodus-wars/edenite.html

Sadly though I think that harrassing GW about SG will be a useless endeavor.
Which is also a thing that has a good side, because SG games are developed now by gamers to make them more interesting and not to make a profit.

Cant really comment on BFG as I only playtested it once, also I prefer the larger land battles but thats personal preference. But I am sure theres plenty of BFG players around here that have useful tips.

[fracas]

BFG has recently undergone some modification on what is available for free on the GW site. these changes are not yet official but we all hope and expect them to be soon.

in addition to the 40k factions (minus SoB)
there are also AdMech, Corsair Eldars, a second Tau list, and some sundries aliens like Demiurge and Fra'al.

while fighters and bombers have a role to play, they do not overwelm gunships as was in the pacific theatre of ww2.


plastic exists only for chaos and imperial cruisers
forgeworld make some resin models
the rest are metal ... and with the new GW pull back from metals, we all wonder what this will mean for BFG as well as all SG games

[Snakeb1te]

@ Guthwine: I don't know what it is but I have trouble accepting proxies or proxy rules. Perhaps I'll learn to be more accepting in future.

You dont know much about BFG? Well feel free to chat about Epic! As it is very possible I will get both Epic and BFG as I'd like to tie in the games in a campaign. Right now I'm trying to make up my mind on which to get first, so some info on Epic if you have more experience would be great. One thing I was wondering was how much of the aspect warriors of the eldar does epic incorporate? Does it have all of the different aspects in a boxset? Does it have most of the codex units as well as all the badass looking super heavies I keep seeing?

I'm actually very sad that Epic:40k wasn't continued as that had Nids and it seemed to be quite good.

@ fracas: wow almost exactly what i wanted to know about prices e.t.c. It's clear that IN/Chaos are the best for nice cheap armies, as well as variety but its good to know which ones are the most cost effective; you can't be picky if you can't afford it! Nevertheless I'll still keep my options open as I still may bend toward Eldar ships to complement an Eldar army on tabletop. (Btw does IN count also as SM? Does SM have plastic ships?)

Yes I also understood from somewhere that although they are powerful, you can't completely mass attack craft as they're limited a certain ship count. Either way whether its ship cannon vs ship cannons or attack craft vs ships I'd be happy to just play some nice fluffy 40k space battles without worrying too much about balance, (I can always adjust some of the rules if it gets unfair.)

Also please elaborate on your first and final comments. Does the first one mean they will add more free Specialist Games material for free? Or pull it back?

And the final comment about metals, does that mean they'll produce plastic version of existing metal ships, produce more range of ships? Or simply pull back all the metal ships (effectively completely ending BFG outside of Chaos/IN).

[fracas]

it all comes down to how much support GW wants to give SG moving forward.
if they want to, they could update the rules as a bound volume and call it BFG 2.0 or some such, and sell it. then support this with either continued metal models or move to resin. plastic i think is a dream only.
if they do not want to support SG, then it will be left as is and die a quiet death when the current metal models inventory runs out.

yes, imperium and chaos give you the cheapest build and the greatest ship options. they also use the standard rules so these are good starting points. i would build one fleet of each to 750-1000 points unless you already have opponents waiting to play. get 4 cruiser hulls, one battleship, and a blister (for chaos) or two (for imperium) of escorts. build 2 cruisers and one heavy/battle cruisers and save the 4th hull tp build once you settle on your preferred play style. since you will only have one battleship i would start there with each fleet, either a gun battleship or a carrier battleship. then build your cruisers to complement the battleship but also capable of playing without the battleship.

space marine has their own models and ship list. they are not built for space naval engagement like the imperial navy.

[Snakeb1te]

Again, a very useful post and I thank you for all the added info.

Still, should I wish to have a fleet of space marine vessels to fight against my housemates heretical imperial guard (of course they are) I doubt they are not built for space combat! I realise Space Marine ships are not geared towards ONLY being fighter vessels as they have to deploy space marines, and have training halls e.t.c, but still they should pack a punch. And even if they don't I care not! It's all about playing with the army you like the most as far as I'm concerned, and if I find myself losing 20 games in a row then I will just buy a few Navy ships to balance it out (pretending that they are support craft).

This info was posted on the original thread over at the relicnewsforums which I appreciate greatly, and will help me in choosing an army once I've learned the rules properly. What are your thoughts on it? Is this about right? If so I'll save it and keep it for future study.

In simple terms:
Navy: A mix of 18th century line and WW1 style tactics, lots of torpedoes (which are quite powerful if you hit with them). Good armor on front axis. Combined arms essential.
Chaos: WW2 naval combat. Direct fire vessels supported by lots of strikecraft. Probably the easiest faction to play.
This is the most well balanced matchup.
Eldar: Extremely maneuverable and pack some powerful guns. Will fall apart like wet tissues if they get hit.
Marines: Decently fast, good armor, strong but short range guns. Only one ship has lances. Very good at boarding.
Necrons: Usually considered the overpowered faction. Some of the strongest guns, and the best armor. Damn fast (which can work against them), but not particularly maneuverable.
Tyranids: Have never played against them. They seem to be really tricky to play because of the huge amount of special rules they have. On the other hand: Close combat IN SPACE!
Tau: Their most powerful ship is all-around a bit weaker than the Navy's Lunar-class cruiser. Imperial Armour 3 gives them a few new ships, like the Custodian (which isn't bad), but they're easily the weakest faction (which actually makes sense). Their non-FW ships don't have very good models, either.

Actually he mentions that more ships are added in the Imperial Armour 3 book, does this mean that not ALL the rules and fleet lists are in the PDFs on the main site?

P.S. If Epic players don't fight for my love, I think I will just choose BFG for the moment, and review whether I want Epic or w40k battles in a few years time.

[fracas]

Yes there are new ship profiles waiting for official approvals


The quote is good but know that there are three eldar factions: dark, corsair and craftworld
The IA3 tau has also been reworked

[horizon]

Hi,
welcome.

Next to the, indeed cheap starters Imperial Navy and Chaos, the Forgeworld Tau fleet is the next in line to be called cheap. Really.
Plus it has always been a balanced fleet. Especially Forgeworld. The GW Tau could be exploited and be called unbalanced/overpowered.

Imperial Armour 3 lacks a fleet list. Forgeworld had a pdf available with fleet list but this is no longer the case. It is floating on the internet though (on this site in the fanatic section iirc).

The new Tau draft is really cool & better.

[Snakeb1te]

Yes there are new ship profiles waiting for official approvals

What does this mean? Was it written by you guys and sent to GW? If so I don't know if that will be successful though I hope so. If not, where are they and who were they written by/why are they not official?

The quote is good but know that there are three eldar factions: dark, corsair and craftworld

Good to know Dark Eldar got their love too! I'm not too familiar with Corsairs but I'll read about them in future. From what I've seen on the GW site there are only 2 ships for Dark Eldar I'd hardly call that a faction. The Eldar section does have a few ships to choose from though, so that's good. (Don't look too bad, interesting design making them look like sails.) I've not seen/heard of Eldar Corsair ships anywhere, unless they're the same Eldar Craftworld ships with different rules to represent different type of army.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat490023a&rootCatGameStyle=

The IA3 tau has also been reworked

What does this mean? I was told that all the rules and army lists would be on the PDFs in the resources section (and it certainly seemed so as there's so much there ) but now IA3 is being mentioned. To me this sounds like there are fleets and army lists missing and I'd have to buy this to work it out. I wouldn't bother getting it if all it includes is IN, SM or Chaos fleet lists as there's plenty of choice of ships on the PDFs, but what would be the point in my collecting the other armies if it requires buying those huge books to expand the range?
(Technically I can get a hold of the book if I really wanted to, but I was glad that for convenience, I'd only need to read those PDFs to know it all.) Not to mention the that I was so eager to start one of these two specialist game on the basis that I could download all playable data by computer, instead of having to buy a rulebook like the more popular wargames.

Please clarify if all GW approved armylists/rules are in the resource section. If not it'd be great if you could name those not there and where I could get them as I may find myself liking a fleet I never knew existed.

Thanks for confirmation of the statement, I'll now save it for decision time choosing a race between my housemate and I.


@ Horizon

By "starters" I assume you mean the boxset, I wasn't sure if I'd get it, especially if I don't need the rulebook or any of the markers and equipment. Sure I'd get some of the fleet, but whilst my friend is likely to go Imperial, I'm not sure that I want Chaos, in fact I could go for any race at this point, but I'll decide when I've read the PDFs and understood the different play styles better. Its good news to me that Tau are cheap as I do like their vehicle design in w40k, though I'm unsure about the BFG GW range where they have 8 models which look rather odd. I can always get some of the VERY good looking 6-7 vessels on Forge World as I have already been reccommended (a real possibility as they look just fantastic).

The rest of your post confuses me like the post by fracas.

1. Why have you said the Forge World fleet is balanced and the GW not? Are Forge World not merely providing models to GW rules? If they have different rules then how can GW allow them to produce their own models and rules to compete with their own?

2. I dont understand what you mean by the book missing a fleet list.

3. Which draft? Fan made or official?


Sorry if I'm irritating everyone with my questions, I'm just really quite clueless as to what the hell is going on with this game. The main 3 games are all supported by GW and I can learn everything from their sourcebooks/stores, but with the specialist games it seems that I'm being referred everywhere. As always I thank you all for your posts so far, but please bear with me and I'll eventually understand this all and join your ranks!

[fracas]

GW assigned stewardship of BFG to a group of individuals we refer to as the High Admiralty.
They are the ones that has made the 2010 FAQ along with new materials for imperial, chaos, orks, tau, and rogue trader. We here gave them feedbacks and playtested. All this was done a few months ago and has since been sent to GW. Since the High Admiralty is GW's people, we all expect the proposal to be adopted, should GW decides to support BFG.

[horizon]

Heya,

@ Horizon

By "starters" I assume you mean the boxset,

Not really. Just that because Imperials & Chaos have plastic cruisers (2 per box) available make them cheaper to collect.

I wasn't sure if I'd get it, especially if I don't need the rulebook or any of the markers and equipment. Sure I'd get some of the fleet, but whilst my friend is likely to go Imperial, I'm not sure that I want Chaos, in fact I could go for any race at this point, but I'll decide when I've read the PDFs and understood the different play styles better.

The rulebook (& armada) are for download at the GW site. The order dice can be ordered at GW though are not needed it you replace them with tokens of own design which resemble special orders. All other cardboard stuff is on the GW site. Warp Rift (unofficial fanzine) also has numerous material to represent attack craft and alike.

Its good news to me that Tau are cheap as I do like their vehicle design in w40k, though I'm unsure about the BFG GW range where they have 8 models which look rather odd. I can always get some of the VERY good looking 6-7 vessels on Forge World as I have already been reccommended (a real possibility as they look just fantastic).

see later.

The rest of your post confuses me like the post by fracas.

1. Why have you said the Forge World fleet is balanced and the GW not? Are Forge World not merely providing models to GW rules? If they have different rules then how can GW allow them to produce their own models and rules to compete with their own?

GW made the metal models with rules in Armada. If you only go with Explorers, Hero's and Orca's the list become really strong. Add variety and it balances.
FW made the resin models with the rules in Imperial Armour 3. GW never recognized them as being really official. So you can use the FW models to represent the GW ships. Now, in the draft 2010 pdf's the FW Tau got a new set of rules (jay!!) written by the BFG rules committee (see Fracas post above).
Do they compete? Nah. FW is still GW.

2. I dont understand what you mean by the book missing a fleet list.

Well... the IA3 book has rules for the ships but not a fleet list (eg commander costs xx pts, may take 1 battleship per xx cruiser, etc). The PDF did have this list.

3. Which draft? Fan made or official?

Soon to be official we all hope.

Not irritating at all.

Summary:
At the GW website you can download the rulebook v1.5 (separate pdf's), you can download armada in separate pdf's. Plus separate pdf's for: Craftworld Eldar (Doom of the Eldar & Yriel's Raiders), Ships of Mars (Adeptus Mechanicus) and Powers of Chaos (Terminus Est/Nurgle).

Furthermore we had FAQ2007 which has never been uploaded to the GW site.

Now we have FAQ2010 & drafts for various factions:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q

Some of these replace ones at the GW website if they become official.


Number of ships in a faction:
Dark Eldar are modular. In fact you have 4 cruisers iirc. Use bits or the booster pack to pimp the ships. Craftworld Eldar are also modular. Corsair Eldar are the Eldar as described in the rulebook.

If you look at Lunar/Gothic etc you'll notice that the Imperials are also modular. But laid out individual in the book.


cheers!

[Snakeb1te]

Proposals by the High Admiralty
Well this is good news. In this case, I wouldn't mind adopting these rules until anything is officially changed by GW.  And just out of interest what are the community's realistic hopes on this actually being taken onboard by GW and within what timespan. We looking at a few months to a year here or far longer?

These 2010 PDFs you've linked me to, these were designed by the High Admiralty? Whilst it certainly looks like Games Workshop material, I was a little amused to click on the Space Marine fleet first, and to find a spelling mistake in the name of the first unit I saw! Fortress - Monestary? At least the rest of the article spelt it correctly
Other than that, a quick glance over 2-3 of the PDFs and they are very good looking so great job to whoever took part in it. I assume they're as balanced as you've/they've possibly tried to make it through extensive playtesting e.t.c. In which case I'd be more than happy to adopt them for the moment, and regularly check back here in these forums for updates. Another question I have is whether these rules have been made for by this forum only and presented to GW, or if this was made by High Admiralty (who have nothing to do with this forum) and the PDFs are used by the majority of BFG community as a result.

Eldar Factions
About the Eldar I'm still a little puzzled. There's the xenos section which has a few ships of Eldar looking like ships with fins, and there's another one called Doom of the Eldar which  has newer looking craft. Was the second supposed to replace the older or are they to be used in tandem? Like an expansion pack.

And the Dark Eldar only have 2 types of ships listed in the xenos list, as well as only 2 on sale, so I don't quite understand  your point.

Not really. Just that because Imperials & Chaos have plastic cruisers (2 per box) available make them cheaper to collect.

Oh right. Though I don't want to limit myself to an army JUST because of cost, it is always something to keep in mind unless you're a millionaire so thanks. Actually I hadn't realised until you said it that BFG had extended rules, I thought Armada was actually the boxset with the rules in it

The rulebook (& armada) are for download at the GW site. The order dice can be ordered at GW though are not needed it you replace them with tokens of own design which resemble special orders. All other cardboard stuff is on the GW site. Warp Rift (unofficial fanzine) also has numerous material to represent attack craft and alike.

Yeah a lot of the stuff I already noticed on the PDFs, which is why I was drawn to Epic/BFG in the first place as it meant I wouldn't have to buy a bucketload of supplementary stuff even before getting the actual armies! Anything other than the ships themselves I'd be fine with being cardboard markers, including the attack craft.
I don't know which of the PDFs is actually the Armada expansion rules though, is it the advanced rules (2nd PDF) or a combination of all the PDFs below? I'll be reading all the PDFs and IA3 Tau fleet section before I make a single purchase anyway.

GW made the metal models with rules in Armada. If you only go with Explorers, Hero's and Orca's the list become really strong. Add variety and it balances.

I'd been told that GW Tau were the weakest faction actually, so far as saying that their strongest ship was only as strong as a cruiser. Fracas from this forum agreed with the quote as a whole too. Check a few posts back on that quote I inserted as it seems you're in disagreement.

FW made the resin models with the rules in Imperial Armour 3. GW never recognized them as being really official.

Are the FW rules used by the majority of the community though? Would someone entering into a Specialist Games Tournament (organised by GW or otherwise) be allowed to use this list? If so thats fine with me.

So you can use the FW models to represent the GW ships.

Indeed. Though I'd think twice about it if the rules regarding them were overpowered or underpowered.

Well... the IA3 book has rules for the ships but not a fleet list (eg commander costs xx pts, may take 1 battleship per xx cruiser, etc). The PDF did have this list.

Actually when I had a look at the book it did have points costs. Unless you mean more detailed rules similar to the stuff about force organisation charts in 40k. Indeed the book only described the models and their abilities (except a transport which had a points value of "special") and didn't contain anything about how to actually incorporate them into an army. Is this not because they follow the same rules as the Tau PDF on the GW site? Perhaps FW intended it so that you're supposed to add the FW rules to the existing GW rules in order to use the new ships. What do you think?

If not, then all I gotta do is get a hold of that old PDF. I'm sure it shouldn't be too hard to find. I'm more concerned as to WHY Forgeworld removed it. Perhaps they deliberately wanted to cut out the tau fleet expansion for whatever reason, and thus took away the backbone of it by deleting the PDF. Thoughts?


- PDF Prospects? Realistic possibilities, and when?
- PDF held in high regard by BFG community? Would a friendly games bunker allow me to utilise it despite no official acceptance by GW?
- A little more info on Eldar and its range (see 2nd paragraph for specific questions)
- Which of the resources comprise the actual Armada expansion, released after the BFG rules?
- GW Tau fleet list over or under powered?
- The unofficial FW rules regarding tau, are they allowed in tournaments for example? Are they accepted by BFG community?
- Thoughts on why FW recalled the PDF with the expansion tau fleet list


 By the way I would be happy share skype or other instant messenger details to discuss there, so people don't have to spend so long reading and replying here. Just understand that I really look into details and analyse everything, a trait I've picked up since studying Psychology, and later Law.

[horizon]

Hi,

first things first:

GW site, BFG resources from top to bottom:

from BFG basic Rules.pdf  to BFG campaign rules.pdf = Rulebook
from Imperial fleets pdf to BFG Tau fleets = Armada
others are individual pdf's never been published in a book.

The Eldar.
(set GW as UK, but you get the jist I hope...)

Corsair & Craftworld Eldar:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat490023a&rootCatGameStyle=
Corsair Eldar = Void Stalker, Shadow, Eclipse, Hellebore, Aconite, Nightshade & Hemlock   *1
Craftworld Eldar = Yriel's flagship, Dragonship, Wraithship, Shadowhunters.  *2

*1 Forgeworlds also sells the Aurora & Solaris light cruisers for the Corsairs.

*2 Four basic types:
Yriel's flagship. I call it Void Dragon Class. You can consider this a Grandcruiser
Dragonship : one basic model but with various weapon options. You can build 4 variants (eg weapon batteries + torpedoes, pulsar + launch bays etc)
Wraithship : one basic model but with various weapon options. You can build 4 variants (eg weapon batteries + torpedoes, pulsar + launch bays etc)
Shadowhunter : one basic model but with various weapon options. You can build 2 variants (weapon batteries or lance)

So we talk about 1 + 4 + 4 + 2 = 11 different ships  in reality.

Again: Imperial cruiser base model, select weapon:
lance str2 + batteries str6 (lunar)
or
lance str4 (gothic)
or
batteries str12 (dominator)

see? Also modular.
Add in the option te make the Craftworld Eldar vessels Ghostship variants the options increase. Just read Doom of the Eldar (old) or the one in the link I gave (new).


Dark Eldar:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat490022a&rootCatGameStyle=
The cruiser model has 3 (or 4) weapon options to take.
So one model = 3 different options in game.

But yeah, DE could use an extra vessel tbh.



Tau,
well, I think setup I gave is strong

Certainly not a weak fleet.


The "link"
these are the pdf's made by the High Admirality/rule committee. In close relation with the community. Currently at GW to be uploaded.



IA3 pdf:
http://sg.tacticalwargames.net/fanatic/
issue 75




- PDF Prospects? Realistic possibilities, and when?  No idea
- PDF held in high regard by BFG community? Would a friendly games bunker allow me to utilise it despite no official acceptance by GW?mostly yes, check with opponent(s)
- A little more info on Eldar and its range (see 2nd paragraph for specific questions)did
- Which of the resources comprise the actual Armada expansion, released after the BFG rules?[/i]given[/i]
- GW Tau fleet list over or under powered? depends on ships used
- The unofficial FW rules regarding tau, are they allowed in tournaments for example? Are they accepted by BFG community? accepted, check before
- Thoughts on why FW recalled the PDF with the expansion tau fleet list because it was free and they want money?