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Author Topic: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang  (Read 13926 times)

Offline Ravendas

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EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« on: June 18, 2009, 08:11:29 PM »
My group is starting a new campaign soon, and I was wondering if anyone had ever heard of this? It is unofficial, and I hadn't heard any reports on it. It was found by a friend on another forum. This forum won't let me attach a .doc to this post, so here is the link http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CJZ5EOAJ (I got it from this link, it's safe, just a .doc)

Basically its a gang with expensive individual models that all have psychic powers, using the standard 4 Wyrd tables. I haven't gone over it with a fine tooth comb yet, but one thing that strikes me as terribly off balancing is the level ups for toughness and wounds. Toughness as the 6 and 8 50/50 skillups mean it would be as common as a WS or BS skillup for all other gangs (5/36 chance), and with their max of 5 toughness makes them hard as nails. Combined with +W needing a 50/50 chance on a 7 (1/12) means most models will quickly become multi-wounded 4t or 5t monsters.

Also, these have 2 listings for prices for each model. 150 or 130 for the magus? 110 or 100 for a basic model? 40 or 50 for the juve?

There would need to be limits as to how many of each you could take as well. Massing beastmasters would result in dozens of minions swarming the table for instance. Any thoughts/ideas for this?



Offline Caelwyn

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2009, 03:16:05 AM »
Add in on top of that they can improve leadership, making whatever scary wyrd powers they get more effective. Indeed the leader starts with higher leadership than the wyrd hired gun already. They can also gain extra wyrd powers.

Try not letting him use them. It's the same thing as the genestealer cults or the chaos cults that appeared in those mags. No balance to them.

Offline Ant

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2009, 05:23:13 PM »
Yeah there's a fair bit of stuff in there that I'm not a fan of. Incidentally those rules seem are a lot more powerful than the other Wyrd Garthering rules featured in Citadel Journal. Here's a link to the original so you can compare the two. If you really wanted to use some wyrd gang rules then I'd plump for those over the rules you've posted here, though personally I'd just start afresh.

I did playtest some simple Wyrd Coven rules a long while back and was surprised that they aren't quite as game breaking as I initially thought they would be, but only if you force a variety of power types and restrict numbers. Sure you'll roll up a couple of nice powers, but generally you'll get a variety of powers that don't compliment each other. You really need to heavily restrict juve wyrds though and I'd recommend you up all of their starting XPs since the more power rolls and advances you get the greater chance of you rolling up some very complimentary abilities.

One thing that could work really well is to randomise recruitment (perhaps not fully for the initial gang recruitment). So after each game you could only recruit a wyrd on a roll of 5+ (+1 for each wyrd that actively hunts for them as a post game action). The wyrd power type and fighter type is randomised with the fighter type being weighted towards regular wyrds rather than a juve so there's much less opportunity to balloon the gang and choose the best wyrd types. This would also nicely represent that wyrds aren't plentiful and don't exactly advertise themselves as well as juves generally not wanting to reveal or admit a power.

One last thing is that even with a gang full of wyrds the perils of the warp rules have a very negligible effect, mostly because the more grizzly results require you to fail an Initiative or Leadership test, so you don't really need any counter balances to this. Oh and possessed wyrds should definately be considered dead after the game (either that or they are whisked off to the join the Illuminati).

Offline Ravendas

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2009, 06:19:52 PM »
Ant, that pdf is really useful. I like that list way more than the one I posted, it seems much more balanced. Just sent it to my friend for his perusal.

They kind of have random recruitment built in. You can hire the Awakening Wyrds (wyrd juves) that only start with a minor power. Then once they hit 21exp, they 'awaken' and gain a random tables power. I really like the idea of that. Also when they awaken, their price goes from juve price to normal wyrd price, just because their awakening is basically giving them a weapon or some other useful function, which a normal gang would be paying for in gangrating. Seems like the writer of that thought about a lot of the problems inherent in Wyrds.

The list also limits you to hiring 1 new wyrd per game, which I think is strict enough.

Offline Ant

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2009, 03:12:50 PM »
Did you get anywhere in your campaign Rav? I'd be interested to know how you got on with a gang full of wyrds in terms of power level with the other gangs.

Offline Ravendas

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2009, 05:03:31 PM »
Did you get anywhere in your campaign Rav? I'd be interested to know how you got on with a gang full of wyrds in terms of power level with the other gangs.

We've actually played 2 games using the Wyrd Rules that you posted.

Actually one semi-confusing part is that the Wyrd Leader has 3 toughness, the 'ganger' wyrds have 4 toughness, and the Awakening Wyrds have 3 toughness. Not sure if they should all have 3, or if the leader should be bumped to 4, or if it's all right as is.

Now, he played two games vs my scavvies. His 9 models vs my 13. His leader has firewall, then he took one of each power type as Wyrds, plus one extra telepath, then 3 Awakenings. Fire Wyrd has Fireball and the minor power that makes him run fast. His two telepaths have Mind Control and Terror, his Telekinetic has Crush, and his beastmaster takes the bats. His awakenings all have pretty useless minor powers, so they mostly shoot with their pistols.

The first game, his beastmaster rolled up 3 bats for the game, and those were actually his mvp. I underestimated their powers, and he was rolling ridiculously well for them. I think they took out 3 scavvies and a scaly... His firewaller was keeping his people safe, and splitting up my force pretty well, but I'd just make many of my scavvies go into overwatch, waiting for the wall to drop at the end of my turn.

His speedy fireballer gets into positions fast, and then tosses his explosive around really well. He is a pain, but my zombies drew out his fireballs, protecting my scavvies.

His terror telepath was a pain, because he could cast it most of the time, and it automatically broke my scavvies. They all have 6 leadership, so they rarely recovered afterwards. "Was" a pain, because he actually got possessed, then winked out of existence the very turn he was possessed.

His mind controller is of mixed used. He needs to pass a test, then I need to fail a test for it to work 100%. That's a pretty low chance. Even if I pass my test though, he pinned one model during my turn, making him miss that turn, and probably the next too (since he doesn't stand up at the end of my turn, because he didn't start the turn pinned). If the mind control does work, he makes one of my guys charge another. Whoever wins, I lose. We decided that any wounds a mind controlled model does is given to the Mindcontroller, for experience purposes.

His Crush telekinetic tears me up. Cover is useless against it, so even the best dug in group can get whittled away by it. Crush has done the most wounds of any of his powers so far.

Overall I'd say it's balanced, so far. However his leader just got +1ld at the end of that last game, bringing him up to LD9. That is an 83% chance to pass a leadership test, and he gives that leadership to anyone within 6" of himself. The Wyrd player is basically going to form a core of Wyrds around him, and melt/blast/psych his way through anything, or at least is his plan. We had pretty balanced games, with him controlling the field with firewall, while I split up my forces to prevent him from bottling me up completely with it.

However he has had terrible luck with survivability. In 2 games, he has lost 2 Wyrds (beastmaster and terror), and an awakening wyrd. The Terror Wyrd was possessed, the Awakening had his head torn off by a Scaly, and the Beastmaster got bitten by a zombie... and rolled a 6 on his zombie sickness test... Terrible luck for him, I think he is down to 7 models in only 2 games.

Offline Madness

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2009, 07:53:58 PM »
For the happyness of Ravendas I registered here too.

In my gaming club we had a guy who was interested in using a wyrd gang too, but we were trying to creating something more traditional (I'm watching the Codex Imperialis from second edition right now) shall I post our development here or shall I make a new thread? Or shall I just go back to my hole?

Offline Caelwyn

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2009, 03:59:27 AM »
Overall I'd say it's balanced, so far. However his leader just got +1ld at the end of that last game, bringing him up to LD9. That is an 83% chance to pass a leadership test, and he gives that leadership to anyone within 6" of himself. The Wyrd player is basically going to form a core of Wyrds around him, and melt/blast/psych his way through anything, or at least is his plan. We had pretty balanced games, with him controlling the field with firewall, while I split up my forces to prevent him from bottling me up completely with it.

However he has had terrible luck with survivability. In 2 games, he has lost 2 Wyrds (beastmaster and terror), and an awakening wyrd. The Terror Wyrd was possessed, the Awakening had his head torn off by a Scaly, and the Beastmaster got bitten by a zombie... and rolled a 6 on his zombie sickness test... Terrible luck for him, I think he is down to 7 models in only 2 games.

Spreading Leadership doesn't work, IMO. It works for Leadership tests, not psychic tests as psychic tests are a test of their willpower against the warp, not their leader's willpower just because they're standing next to him. It uses the leadership characteristic but is not a leadership test. As Outlanders is pretty poorly FAQ'd, especially wyrds, I can't point to an official ruling though.

Offline Madness

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2009, 08:45:21 AM »
By the way, Ld9 is more than a Mighty Hero of the Scholastica Psykana has.

If a normal human can work up to be a Mighty hero of the IG (a Colonel)
ProfileMWSBSSTWIALd
Colonel466443639

Then it stands to reason that the maximum stats for a psyker are
ProfileMWSBSSTWIALd
Psyker Lord466444638

Offline Ravendas

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2009, 02:38:54 PM »
Madness: House gangers can get up to 9LD, I don't see why the Wyrds couldn't. Doesn't really line up with the rest of the wh40k universe, but lots of things don't really.

Caelwyn: Really? They can't use his leadership for power tests? The wording just says that leaders give their leadership to others for leadership tests, and the psychic powers basically says 'test against leadership', so it's hard to say no to it without some faq ruling. Just to compare, Impressive Scars also allows people to control the warp better...

I'd say that the leader's mind is potent enough that he creates a small area of calm in the warp around him, allowing those near him to more easily control it. There is basically nothing in the faq as far as Wyrd powers go though, so maybe one day it will get looked at.

Offline Madness

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2009, 02:46:38 PM »
That bit is from the codex imperialis, traditionally psykers can't get a too high Ld value, even Librarian Mighty Heroes weren't on par with other space marine Mighty Heroes.

They have a different progression.
But they can get a 4th wound. It's the same in the IG codex (page 20).

I don't pretend I know the reasons, but I guess they did it for balance. After all Psykers are abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and Squats, and they have different maximals.

Offline Ravendas

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2009, 04:29:41 PM »
Okay, makes sense I guess. However the max stats on this Wyrd Gathering we are testing out actually has standard human maxes. 3W, 9LD... We never mentioned a change to it before playing, so we will stick with it for now and see how broken 9ld wyrds can be.

Especially a 9ld wyrd with a firewall, that likes to use it offensively. Most of my catwalks are about 1.5" wide, so if you have a model on there and he sends a firewall right down it, you are forced to jump off. Pretty good use of it, but it technically doesn't get him any wounding hits (or would it?)

Offline Ant

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2009, 05:32:46 PM »
Well wyrds aren't abhuman in the ogryn sense, they are just mutants. Traditionally pyskers/mages have always had a Wound boost in W40k and WFB just to make their profiles more different from the heroes and lords. I don't think you have to carry that over to wyrds since they are just hivers not trained pyskers but I prefer capping their Ld to 8 purely for game balance.

Caelwyn: Really? They can't use his leadership for power tests? The wording just says that leaders give their leadership to others for leadership tests, and the psychic powers basically says 'test against leadership', so it's hard to say no to it without some faq ruling. Just to compare, Impressive Scars also allows people to control the warp better...

Yup officially you're right Rav. Fluff-wise I can see Caelwyn's point but personally I'd just leave it as is just for simplicity because otherwise you'd probably also have to question every other Leadership modifier like Impressive Scars and wildsnake. I guess you could argue that those around the leader would be a little more on their toes eager to impress.

In my gaming club we had a guy who was interested in using a wyrd gang too, but we were trying to creating something more traditional (I'm watching the Codex Imperialis from second edition right now) shall I post our development here or shall I make a new thread? Or shall I just go back to my hole?

Yeah go for it. I couldn't resist writing up some Wyrd Coven rules myself (link) so I'd be interested to see if you came to any different conclusions.

We've actually played 2 games using the Wyrd Rules that you posted.

Sounds like they are hoot to play against what with all the different tactics needed to beat each individual wyrd and it's good to hear they appear balanced. Btw, the Magus should probably start with T4 as well. I'd be very interested to hear how you get on with them through the campaign, in particular the rarity and effect Leadership advances have.

Offline Madness

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2009, 05:40:53 PM »
wow sir, wait there, mutant is a BIG offense. An abhuman is a (somewhat) respected member of the imperial society, a mutant is a heresy walking among us! Watch your language! ;)

I've posted my earliest developements in another thread, will add the fluff bits and something else later on. I included the whole developement, not just the results so you can see how I'm working on the material. I must apologize for my unintentional rudeness, but I won't read your Wyrd rules just yet. I have a quite clear vision, and I don't want it to creep elsewhere before I'm done writing what I have in mind right now.

Offline Aodhan

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL - Wyrd Gang
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2009, 10:33:14 AM »
Hi guys.

I stumbled across the Wyrd Gang list the other day. Thought it looked great and then did a search for feedback on whether or not it's balanced and that's how I ended up here.

I've tried to downloaded the copy of the Wyrd Gang that Ant posted but I can't access it and keep getting a 404 error message. Would it be possible to obtain a copy of this?

Also, Ravendas, how have you found the Wyrd Gang as your campaign has progressed? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.