Howdy fellow connoiseurs!

[Avatar of the Eldar]

I found my way here from Warseer, with the help of Lex getting past the ban-force-field. I have had a copy of Warmaster almost as long as I've been playing Warhammer (9 years.)  While I like larger (28mm) models to paint and look at, I've always found Warmaster's command & control oriented rules very attractive.  Massed ranks of troops, not masses of minutia in terms of army/unit/equipment special rules.  There's an elegance to it.

My problem has been a common one - no one the gaming group I fell in with shows the least bit of interest.  Now I've got an itch to give it a try and offer it up to my group as an occasional alternative to our weekly 2500 pts, tourney style WFB play.

Here are my questions for the community:

What would be two nicely balanced armies to collect that would be fun for either opponent?
- High Elves are a given.
- Don't like Tomb Kings' aesthetics
- I've read O&G are difficult due to command challenges

What's a good point level to play at. I think I read a suggestion at Warseer for 2000+. 

Are there any sample army lists by which I could guide my purchases?  I've read cavalry is king but I want "realistic" armies of massed infantry with appropriate numbers of support elements - not min/max optimizing.

What's your counsel?

My appreciation in advance...

AotE

[Haranin]

Many people think knights are king. They aren't... they are just easier to use then infantry. Properly led infantry can devastate knights for a fraction of the cost.

While the HE min infantry all knight force is brutal; the only game I have lost to HE had only two fast movers and was composed mostly of spearelves.

For your initial purchase you can't go wrong with your basic required units, full characters, and at least one of each unit.

HE for 2k, if you want to play around with a list...
2 archers
2 bolt throwers
eagles
reavers
4x silver helms
7 spearelves
General with orb
two wizards, one mounted on a dragon with a sword

Two key notes about WM- its about C&C, not kitted up lords. Your general's job is to stay out of combat and command. Attach your general and you will probably lose the game. Only do that in a do or die situation. The other key note is break point is king. Infantry provides a battle line and cheap bulk to your break point. The above list has a BP of 10.

As the games get larger everyone's leadership averages out to the hero's standard of 8. So O&G don't really have a leadership problem- you just need to dedicate a hero per brigade. Third major point- never move an individual unit (unless its for a knight sandwitch... ie cutting off the retreat of enemy units). Brigade 3-4 units together to easy C&C issues.

Orcs or Chaos would be a good op force for the HE. Dwarves would be an interesting choice, but you will get sick of painting 10-12 warrior units.

The Battle of Five Armies box set is a good idea- good elf models (most of what you need for a core force); some humans and dwarves and a ton of goblins. You can fill out the goblins with copplestone models for trolls/orges; command models etc.

[Haranin]

2k chaos something like-

General with orb
sorcerer on dragon with sword
sorcerer

4x marauder foot
2 chaos warriors
2 ogres (can use in O&G or Chaos)
Dragon ogres
Harpies
2 chaos knights
3x hounds (BOFA wolves can be used)
BP 8

If you can find them, the box sets are quite good.

[calmacil]

Hey Avatar,
Welcome to the forum. I'm from warseer as well. I recognize your name, you're often in the LotR section. You made a nice comment on one of my bat reps (i did rohan v isengard bat rep called Daylight Raid into Rohan) 



Addressing your "cav is king" comment....
I started off thinking the same with my infantry heavy Orc army, i lost my first 4 games and couldn't see how i could win. But we were missing various rules by mistake. For example, we didn't realise infantry units are defended on a hill, or that you only get the charge bonus in open terrain (we were allowing cavalry the charge bonus on hills) I'd also advise using some Warmaster Ancients rules, we do "max of 2 rounds of combat" and "infantry support is worked out before casulaties are taken off"
Since we've realised our mistakes i've done much better with my orcs (i've won more games than i've lost now) I think they are more difficult to use though.

You need plenty of terrain for Warmaster, lots of hills. I've just bought myself 5 big sheets of 10mm thick polystyrene sheets. Models fall off hills that are too steep.

It's a shame you can't get more opoonents though, that's the main difficulty with specialist games.

[Lex]

As the games get larger everyone's leadership averages out to the hero's standard of 8. So O&G don't really have a leadership problem- you just need to dedicate a hero per brigade. Third major point- never move an individual unit (unless its for a knight sandwitch... ie cutting off the retreat of enemy units). Brigade 3-4 units together to easy C&C issues.

Orcs or Chaos would be a good op force for the HE.

Haranin makes all the good points   so no need to regurgitate those like a hungry troll......

Brigading is a must when playing Warmaster. Most armies benifit from having 4 strong brigades, O&G seem to run better with 2-3 strong ones (Ulgityer used to compare this to roman maniples style deployment),

If you have HE already and want to pull in other players then Chaos will mean less units to paint, compared to O&G. Also the Chaos army just has 3 battle combat slots to fill, as they do not field Artillery (unless you want to count spawn as such, in which case they are the only army that usese "man handeled" artillery......

[Lex]

You need plenty of terrain for Warmaster, lots of hills.

May even more important, lots and LOTS of lineair features !!   (anything like small walls or hedges, ditches, small streams, (sunken) roads etc.......

[fracas]

Welcome to the board

I think the second army could be
Empire: all fantasy players would recognize it, great model line, competitive list, and easy to acquire from eBay. Or
Araby: wow factor as not available in fantasy, also great models and competitive

[David Wasilewski]

I would second Fraca's advice re your second army choice - Empire or Araby!

Araby look nicer and you will need slightly less units as some of them are quite expensive ponts wise (e.g. elephants and carpets)
Empire are a very balanced force and cheap to acquire on e bay as they are one of the most numerous armies available second hand.

I agree that 2K is the smallest size game you want to play to get a good sense of what the rules are there to do. 3k a side is even better though....

You need to have one third of the table covered with fields, hills, forests, villages etc or else cavalry will dominate.

Welcome to the forum!

Dave (Vos on Warseer)

[Geep]

Welcome Avatar of the Eldar

If you're after an 'evil' army for your High Elves to fight I'd suggest Chaos, simply because their points will add up quickly and you can get gaming!

There aren't really any armies that are worse than the rest though- Warmaster is one of the most balanced games I've come across in that way. Pick an army that inspires you with the look- check out the painting and modelling area for ideas. Fur Sigmar by Cobalt (can't do umlauts) and Dark Elf Army by Calmacil are two that have really been inspiring me recently.

[Avatar of the Eldar]

Good morning and thanks, guys.  I appreciate the guidance.

HE v. Chaos seems like a solid, classic match up. 

I'll work up a couple lists and bring them here for feedback.

Thanks again.

[Dave]

Some of my first games I played were with Orcs, they are definitely a challenge. Given that and the amount of models you need for them (unless you're going boar heavy) I wouldn't recommend them as a starting force.

The High Elves have been the first army I've been painting. I've definitely found them more forgiving command-wise. I can't speak to how well they do with lots of Silver Helms but a mass of Spearmen has worked pretty well for me. Here's what I usually take:

4 brigades of 2 Spearmen and 1 Archer
2 units each of Silver Helms, Reavers, Chariots and Bolt Throwers
max command

It makes for a high breakpoint army (for Elves anyway ) and comes out to 2k even with the revised tourney list. I usually keep the Cav in reserve and just try to stick to defended positions, shooting at the enemy while they close.

[azrael71]

Hello,
Warmaster is rubbish, you are better off playing WFB
Seriously I always recommend people start playing at 1000 point level with the counters provided here
https://sites.google.com/site/wmplaytest/work-in-progress-1/publications
There are also a couple of very good army selectors that lets you play around with values.
Once you have the rules nailed (not happened to me yet ) and found a force you like the feel of, then start thinking about army builds. But I always follow Lex's min/max rule when buying the first batch of any warmaster army.

Cheers
Mick

[Avatar of the Eldar]

Just a few more questions for now regarding list-building.  My sense is that it's not as fine-tune fiddley as WFB or 40K.

So, does it matter that much whether I take Chaos Hounds or Chaos Marauders?

How does one choose between Chariots, Silver Helms and Reavers?

How does one get to a right balance or mix of units?  Or does it not have much impact "in game"?

To be honest, I'm not looking to min/max optimize.  I personally like to field a variety models in "realistic" ratios as long as I'm not totally gimping my army. 

[Lex]

Just a few more questions for now regarding list-building.  My sense is that it's not as fine-tune fiddley as WFB or 40K.

Nope it is prety much straight forward. Decide the size army you want to play, line up all the mandatory minimums and consider the opponent en terrain and type of game to fill up your remaining points.

So, does it matter that much whether I take Chaos Hounds or Chaos Marauders?

Chaos hounds count as Cav and 20 cm move, and are nearest a "disposable"  shielding unit that chaos has.
Marauders are infantry, so they will like a table with some place to stake their tents....

How does one choose between Chariots, Silver Helms and Reavers?

Theming your army.......  other then that, the SH are there to punch through a battleline, Reavers otoh are great to obstruct horde type armies flanks, and they allow more concentrated fire compared to normal archers.

How does one get to a right balance or mix of units?  Or does it not have much impact "in game"?

Experience ...and as said above, you will need to cinsider your opponent(s), tabels and type of game.
eg. for a EuroGT tournament you define your core army and 2 seperate "attachements". Depending in the games you play with the full force, or with the core and just 1 attachement. This is the kind of mindset IMHO that you should always bring to the table, be flexible

To be honest, I'm not looking to min/max optimize.  I personally like to field a variety models in "realistic" ratios as long as I'm not totally gimping my army.

The only min-maxing that WM has are those in the Army selectors. Assuming you base you games of those you should be doing fine!

[calmacil]

Just a few more questions for now regarding list-building.  My sense is that it's not as fine-tune fiddley as WFB or 40K.

Yeah list building is not as important as WFB or 40k.

It's usually the best general that wins in WM.