Alternate units and special rules - What do you guys do?

[Christopher]

I have started acquiring some alternate units recently (never cheap ) and I am exploring the possibilities for expanding the army lists to include them as units that are different on paper as well as the table. What have you guys tried in the past to increase the character these units add to the game?

I currently have:

Dragon Princes
Sword masters
Phoenix Guard

Knights panther
Knights of the blazing sun

*Looking for dwarf alts like a crack head looks for his next fix. Contact me if you want to offload them  $$$

At the very least what would you guys do to add some character to these units away from there stock counterparts.

[Geep]

The usual thing for (i think) most people is to use them as a unit with magic item.

Dragon princes and swordmasters hit hard, so maybe a magic sword or combat damage boosting banner for them. Phoenix guard are hard to kill, so either a +1 save or +1 hit banner for them.

Obviously this idea falls down a bit if you have multiples of each alternate unit- unless your opponent agrees you can take the same magic items multiple times for those units.

[calmacil]

The problem with those banners is they have a limited effect. The +1 save banner stops working after you lose a stand, and other banners are one use only or only during the first round of combat. Do you follow those rules as well? or ignore them?


I've also been adding my own units into the game Christopher. It's on another thread called "costing" alternative units. There's also rules for alternative units in the online Fanatic magazine. (think they have rules for greatswords and DE executioners)

Personally i use the basic formula that it costs 25 points to increase either attacks or hits, and around 15 points to increase armour. Many of the warmaster stat lines seem to follow this, but others don't. So it's not full proof. Warning though, you'll get some people that agree and

Using warmaster ancients may also give you some ideas

PS.
Apologies, didn't mean to turn this into another debate about costing of alternative units 

[Happymcclap]

how about using one of the more suitable unit bonuses:


Best = +5 points- bonus attack per round, 1 per unit not per stand
Bold= +20 points- recover 1 carry over hit per round
Brave = +10 points- ignore penalty for enemy when issuing orders to this unit
Conquerors = +15 points- double pursuit bonuses
Courageous = +10 points- always stands ground if defeated in combat
Fearless = +5 points-ignore penalties for terror, enemy to side/rear & confusion
Foremost = +25 points- obeys 1st order on anything but a 12
Fortunate = +20 points- armour value +1 in first turn of combat
Gallant = +10 points- last stand gets +3 hits
Loyal = +25 points- obeys orders on anything but a 12 if general within 20cm
Mighty = +5 points- close combat attack rolls of 6 cannot be saved
Steadfast = +5 points- re-roll 1 armour save per round
Strong = +10 points- +1attack per stand in 1st round of combat
Swift = +25 points- ignore distance modifier for orders
Tough = +15 points- re-roll armour saves on a 6+
Undefeated = +20 points- armour value +1 until a stand is lost
Valiant = +10 points- re-roll all attack dice – one use
Vanquishers = +15 points- D6 bonus attacks during 1st charge
Victorious = +10 points- +1 to combat result – one use


see my post here for a full summary of costing modifications to units:

http://sg.tacticalwargames.net/forum/index.php?topic=4290.0

[jchaos79]

Another possibility is using veterany for campaings.

[Geep]

The problem with those banners is they have a limited effect. The +1 save banner stops working after you lose a stand, and other banners are one use only or only during the first round of combat. Do you follow those rules as well? or ignore them?

I would apply the effect of the banner exactly as it is in the book- even though they are temporary. Differences between many units in Warhammer is not that huge- in Warmaster scale these differences ar easily ignorable (which is the way the rules currently are- it's a game of leadership rather than combat stats).
Although a little dull, the positive side of doing things this way is that I can meet someone for a game tomorrow and play them using these rules with no prior agreements or organisation.

For adjusting pts costs of units- this idea is fine, but it's not a simple scale of +15 pts for +1 armour, etc. As you near the extremes things  become more valuable. If you have more hits armour becomes more valuable, and vice versa. A really hard hitting unit can be made fair by giving it little protection (see Flagellants, Trollslayers and Witch Elves).
The unit bonuses listed by Happymcclap suffer the same problem- they can be fine and rightly pointed in some contexts, but they'll be horribly broken with others.
In short, if you want to leave the official rules and try to design your own things make sure that 1) Your opponent is fully aware of all of your modifications in advance, and has veto power and 2) You playtest, adjusting points for a few games (with opponent's input). Opponent's input for point 2 is important- it can be easy to think that your awesome new unit with special rules that single-handedly won you a game is very fairly pointed.

[Happymcclap]

Hi Geep, the unit bonuses i mentioned were official additions designed for WMA and as i point out in the post here:

http://sg.tacticalwargames.net/forum/index.php?topic=4290.0

they are not totally suitable for Warmaster fantasy, but useful as a Guideline, most will work fine as you say, but consideration of the cost must be taken when applying them to certain fantasy units, something else to consider is that min/max can affect points cost too

[jchaos79]

The problem with those banners is they have a limited effect. The +1 save banner stops working after you lose a stand, and other banners are one use only or only during the first round of combat. Do you follow those rules as well? or ignore them?

Well the banner works this way, this is not a problem I think. Yep I follow the rules in my games.

[Bel]

Already invented. Battle Honours

[Happymcclap]

Thanks for diggng that out Bel, long time since i read over that article. You can definately notice what i call the "Fantasy Factor" in some of those point costs, for eg Bushwackers = 60pts whilst in WMA Swift= 25 pts, loyal costs 60 in fantasy 25 in ancients etc etc the incompatability between the two points systems is frustrating.

[calmacil]

the incompatability between the two points systems is frustrating.

Yes i've found that as well. I generally favour the WM ancients cost, they seem to have it right for most of the units.

There's also quite a difference between the standard cost of a unit and a unit that has been upgraded with a magic item. For example, if you say a unit of Dragon Princes is Silver Helms with +1 attack banner that will make DP unit identical to Cold One Riders. Difference is Cold Ones cost 130, Dragon Princes will cost 160. Same applies to others. It seems to make the rare units weaker than the average unit if you use magic items as their upgrade. Which is a shame because those units cost alot of money nowadays 

[Geep]

Although it's true that the banners are overcosted they do allow armies to have things that are othwerwise inaccessible to them- and with different supporting units.
As an example, Black Orcs with the +1 save banner are equal in stats to Chaos Warriors, but they cost more and the banner is temporary. The Black Orcs can have a 30pt unit of goblins for support, whereas Chaos Warriors need to spend 60pts minimum for some Marauders. Not to mention that Orcs and Goblins have access to shooting and artillery not found in a Chaos army.
I can see why people may not like this method- it's a bit dull and doesn't really scratch the 'creative' itch that a nice alternate sculpt unit may create- but it is quick, simple and it can not be argued as being unfair.

Battle Honours etc. are great, but I'd always have a back up idea just in case you meet an opponent who doesn't accept that kind of thing (I guess I'm used to being forced into conservatism by my past gaming group- hopefully you all play in more open minded communities).

[Guthwine]

I think if you make the effect of banners last till the death of the unit instead of its first stand, then maybe you would see more of them around.

[Happymcclap]

Yes i've found that as well. I generally favour the WM ancients cost, they seem to have it right for most of the units.

I only use WMA these days, i think of it as Warmaster 2nd, as they remedied the 3 issues i had with standard Warmaster.

[Jo]

Hello,

I have never played WMA but can see that some rules have been improved. I have seen quite some posts here that warn against using WMA for WMF games, so I'm curious on how you solved this.

Did you convert all the fantasy armies to WMA then or do you play with the historical armies then? And what about monsters and fliers?

Concerning the rule changes, are there specific rules in WMA that unbalance a WMF game? The max 2 rounds of combat could be one. But the shooting changes and supported infantry charges don't seem that unbalancing at firsti sight.