Chasing the Dragon?

[Pugwash]

Hi Folks

Does anyone have any advice as to how to combat the High Elf Dragon Rider?  With his charge reach, terror factor, home-back, save and excellent attacks on the charge (even without Light of Battle, and hero joining it) I struggle to dispatch it with empire, chaos and dark elves.  Particularly when it can charge a flank.

Can anyone provide advice to deal with it and not lose 4-8 units in the process?

[Bel]

Ohhh... My regular opponent uses a pair of them and they are real headache. And I still didn't find any way to deal with them except charging the DR in front and flank with 2 units of heavy cavalry supported by terror causing character(s) and blocking DR's retreat with 3d unit (of any type) placed 1cm away DR in irregular formation (idea is to make DR loose a combat by 1 at least).

[captPiett]

Offhand, I'd say flagellents, dragon ogres, and a war hydra, respectively. With the empire and DE, you're probably able to outnumber the elves (esp. when they take the dragon rider), so you can wait until he puts the DR down during deployment, then place those units so they can act as 1) deterrent to him being reckless with it, then 2) sacrifice to hurt/kill the thing. A nice battery of cannon with good placement could do the trick if you're lucky...
In any case, don't plan on those units surviving to complete the task 
Normally, I'd balk at taking too many expensive units, but if the HE player has a dragon, then he's already reduced his breakpoint significantly, so that gives you a little wiggle room to splurg on 1-2 monsters.

[Pugwash]

My regular opponent uses a pair of them and they are real headache

Ouch! My sympathies

@ captPiett I agree that Dragon Ogres can do the job  , not so sure about the flagellants given the chance of only one stand fighting and no armour saves, but if the Dragon Rider were already wounded they might be a dis-incentive.  

Knights joined by a terror causer (hero on Griffon) seem to be the Empire's best hope and as you point out the chances of either surviving the combat + subsequent counter-charges are not high.  Nevertheless, that seems reasonable given the cost of the dragon.  The problem really lies in the DR's range.  Even if I deploy well, he will simply home-back to a new position, then initiate a regular/flank charge on almost any formation he wishes, meaning I'd have to hold several units of knights back as bodyguards, and pray that after eating a brigade from the flank (with an advance charge), he doesn't fall back far enough to be beyond charge reach and that my characters don't botch the orders.

My experience has been that the Dragon Rider used offensively will eat at least 4-6 units of Empire Troops, before I can really damage him, and while that is still not unreasonable in points terms, it often means that my army is half-way to broken before my 3rd turn

I guess one answer is to get my demons painted and return the favour with a Greater Demon!  

[azrael71]

I must be missing a trick here.
Whenever I use the dragon rider he gets pasted next turn.
Am I right in thinking that his redeploy at the end of combat is still 3 dice?

[Bel]

do u mean 'fall back'?

[azrael71]

yes

[Bel]

yes, DR may (or - in the case of draw - must) fall back in a distance up to 3D6 and reform at the end of phase as normal.

[azrael71]

So it will be within charge range most of the time of your opponent next turn, before you get the chance to homeback.
As long as you drag along a terror causer it can be taken out or severely hurt thereby halving its potential.

[Pugwash]

So it will be within charge range most of the time of your opponent next turn

Well, I guess this depends on the circumstances. 

In my view, unless your opponent targets a unit very near your knights, the Dragon Rider will fall back (on average) beyond initiative charge reach.

Playing Empire last night* the dragon rider fell back beyond the charge-arc of my knights, it was two orders to get them in, 1 to move to see them, and 1 to charge (and due to the proximity of the DR a subsequent -1), which I, predictably, failed initially.

So, an effective counter-Dragon Rider plan assumes that you bodyguard more vulnerable brigades with knights and ensure that your terror causing character is available, and hope that the General is the closest commander - which on top of the initial charge casualties, and advance charge casualties, and probability of losing combat effectiveness for the knights concerned - makes for a considerable investment in strategy to combat a single enemy unit.  And that's if you can actually kill it before it homes-back.

* I make no claim to being an exceptional general.

[azrael71]

In my cricumstance, as the dragon rider fell back beyond the charge-arc of my knights, it was two orders to get them in, 1 to move to see them, and 1 to charge (and due to the proximity of the DR a subsequent-1), which I predictably failed  initially.

* I make no claim to being an exceptional general.

If you make your 2nd command outside of 20cm from the DR then you do not suffer the -1 command penalty.

I have heard great tales of DR's being game winners.
A lad at our club reckons he can beat any army and always takes 2 plus a hero on a dragon.
But whenever I have tried to take them I find them a complete waste of points.
Also I have never seen the lad in question win a game with them.
He regularly gets his ass handed to him.

So I am curious if anyone does have solid tactics for using them as I have 5 sat in my army that very rarely see a game.

[Pugwash]

If you make your 2nd command outside of 20cm from the DR then you do not suffer the -1 command penalty.

If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride.

So I am curious if anyone does have solid tactics for using them

Bel probably has more tips than I but:

Take one dragon rider; send two wizards forward, and home the dragon back to the one with the sweetest view of softest unit of infantry you can find.  See if you can force the other general to hold back key cavalry while you send yours forward, then charge the dragon into the infantry or war machines, supported by a Light of Battle, and advance charge into a flank, preferably where units are aligned in a line behind each other so you fight both units in the flank, then once the screaming stops fall back on the most obtuse angle possible to make counter-charges hard.  With luck, rinse and repeat.  Even if your opponent commits his best resources, and actually takes out the dragon rider, your cavalry and silver helms should now be poised to break the key remaining units using superior High Elf command.

Optionally, the dragon rider joins two units of silver helms in the charge and completely mashes whatever its fighting.  After the enemy is crushed fall them back together, so that even on the charge you will likely destroy, or seriously cripple counter-charges.

[Bel]

I would say only the Dragon Riders work nice when in pair, supporting each other - at least against me - I mean 2000 pts game and a formal support. DR alone or DR + character on the Dragon are less effective, more vulnerable and look like a pointsink.

[captPiett]

A lad at our club reckons he can beat any army and always takes 2 plus a hero on a dragon.
But whenever I have tried to take them I find them a complete waste of points.
Also I have never seen the lad in question win a game with them.
He regularly gets his ass handed to him.

So there's a bit of self delusion going on at your club? 
The elves are good enough w/o the DR, IMO.
They do seem to be a huge point sink.
As to the flagellants and their utility against a DR, yes, with them you'd have to get pretty lucky, as in having them supported, or getting a flanking charge in, or a combination of both. I was thinking of their immunity to terror, but they'd be more of a speedbump/sacrifice than a credible foe. As said in previous posts, the DR can act as a huge distraction, drawing off your powerful units. So, with a high-breakpoint army, I'd commit a brigade of regular troops just to hurt the thing, as long as my knights (chaos, imperial, undead, etc) are preserved for their real purpose: making the enemy reach his breakpoint first. If I have a low-breakpoint army, I probably have a few nasty monsters of my own with which to combat the DR.

[jchaos79]

Well for telling the truth I have not played too much with the dragon raider, but the few games we used it doesn`t seem too dangerous. I guess we didnt used in in its full potential (supported with magic, flanking etc...)

That was my experience