Chasing the Dragon?

[Guthwine]

I have faced one dragon rider, once till now (because of the lack of HE players) but he did not do damage worth his cost before taken down by 2 units of bretonnian knights (one attacked, one blocked his way). I think its better to go with 2 units of eagles, a hero on dragon and invest the remaining points in cavalry.

[Bel]

I think its better to go with 2 units of eagles, a hero on dragon and invest the remaining points in cavalry.

Yeah, my another opponent plays this way (he usually takes 1st/2d places on our tournies).

[Munster]

Actually, I find his greatest value is in the hesitation he causes you pugwash

Given that warmaster is won by being offensive, the fact that he causes you to think defensively gives me free reign to pick my fights with all my units. Try ignoring him and bashing on. Yes he may kill 3-4 units but if you can destroy 4-6 of my squishy bits in the meantime you're ahead. ie make a plan to kill my units and ignore the distraction, of course its easy for me to say!

And yes, if I get time I'd like to swap him for 2 SH and 1 GE units I think these would be more combat effective, albiet less of a distraction.

[Claus]

Shure Dragon Riders are tough ones and especiall if appearing in pairs lead by a skilled general but......as others mentioned already....this means for the HE player to have a significant low Breakpoint.

Also they are not unkillable. Of course it allways depends on the army....and for Undead it´s for shure a hard task to kill them.
Surround them and try to get support into play...you don´t need to kill it. Just win close combat by 1 and he can´t escape when being sourrounded.

As an Empire player you have a nice spell for your wizzards.....WEIRD ENCHANTMENT....meaning to reduce charging distance of the Dragon to 50 cm and killing it´s "terror" bonus. An option to think about.

I prefer to have more units on the table instead of 2 heavy hittings and and very expensive ones for 600 points.

Cheers
Claus

[captPiett]

As an Empire player you have a nice spell for your wizzards.....WEIRD ENCHANTMENT....meaning to reduce charging distance of the Dragon to 50 cm and killing it´s "terror" bonus. An option to think about.

Despite flying creatures having 100cm movement, can't they only charge units they can see, i.e. within 30cm?

[Guthwine]

They can charge on initiative only within 20cm but with an order you can charge the full 100cm.

[captPiett]

They can charge on initiative only within 20cm but with an order you can charge the full 100cm.

Isn't a unit required to see what its charging though? So, a for a flying unit to make a 100cm charge, there would have to be a heck of lot of open space between it and the target (at which point you'd have to smack whoever set up the terrain    ) Is there a range-limit to what a unit can see?

The reason I ask is it makes sense if you consider charging with a brigade: each unit goes one at a time, if the the first chargers block LoS for the subsequent ones, they're out of luck. They may have the movement to get to a flank, but if they can't see the flank, no charge.

[Lex]

You need to have LOS to charge.

Two units of flyers will almost always have problems alligning so the second can still pull of a charge

The keyword for setting up Warmaster terrain is LINEAIR OBSTACLES

Within the playtest team, one of the "V2" issues on the list was to restrict all charges to LOS + 60cm distance. Which "partly" helps solve some of these issues

[spiritusXmachina]

But it is enough to have a line of sight to any point of the charged unit. So you do not need to see exactly the flank if you would be obliged to charge there.
On the other hand you need enough room to place the charging unit. If you would be charging the flank of a unit and there is a wall one centimeter away so that less than a centimeter of the flank-edge is free - you may not charge.

[Stomm]

Cannons, lots of cannons, and a couple of hellblasters if you can for point defence. Put them on a hill, then even if the little blighter hides behind a forest or something then you may still be able to fire at it, and if it charges your gun-line then you will most likely be able to shoot at it with between eight and ten S&S attacks, the cannon ones will ignore armour. And of course it's going to be hitting you on 5+'s, with no charge or monster-charge bonuses.

I've actually seen a dragon and Eagles charge my artillery brigade, only to lose two stands of Eagles, the dragon get wounded to half strength and then bounce off in defeat.

And of course two units of cannos firing at a dragon at range will on average cause four wounds, but if you're lucky maybe as many as eight. Just remember to play dirty back at the High Elves, if you can then screen you LoS and engage his other units with lots and lots of knights.



And of course that is the other way to fight a dragon. Just ignore it, or at least ensure that it plays as little a part in the battle as possible by proactively hunting down the rest of the HE army. If you break him before it even enters combat, then it will at least teach your opponent that putting all his expensive eggs in one basket wasn't such a good idea afterall...

[Carrington]

Cannons, lots of cannons, and a couple of hellblasters if you can for point defence. Put them on a hill, then even if the little blighter hides behind a forest or something then you may still be able to fire at it, and if it charges your gun-line then you will most likely be able to shoot at it with between eight and ten S&S attacks, the cannon ones will ignore armour. And of course it's going to be hitting you on 5+'s, with no charge or monster-charge bonuses.

IIRC cannons' 'S&S' attacks are with grapeshot -- I'm not sure that they ignore armor.

[Lex]

Cannons, lots of cannons, and a couple of hellblasters if you can for point defence. Put them on a hill, then even if the little blighter hides behind a forest or something then you may still be able to fire at it, and if it charges your gun-line then you will most likely be able to shoot at it with between eight and ten S&S attacks, the cannon ones will ignore armour. And of course it's going to be hitting you on 5+'s, with no charge or monster-charge bonuses.

IIRC cannons' 'S&S' attacks are with grapeshot -- I'm not sure that they ignore armor.

S&S has normal AS, so no automatic hits on dragons!

[Stomm]

Ah yes, good point, I'm more than a little rusty I'm afraid. Still 10+ S&S attacks is going to hurt, armour saves or not...

[Pugwash]

Interesting responses.  

You need to have LOS to charge.

Two units of flyers will almost always have problems alligning so the second can still pull of a charge

The keyword for setting up Warmaster terrain is LINEAIR OBSTACLES

Hmm, it seems to me that with Home-Back and LD10 there would be few issues of setting up a flank charge on a soft unit even in a battlefield packed with terrain on any turn following the first.  As an additional bonus, even a failed order is unlikely to put the flyers in danger, unlike any other unit.

Try ignoring him and bashing on. Yes he may kill 3-4 units but if you can destroy 4-6 of my squishy bits in the meantime you're ahead. ie make a plan to kill my units and ignore the distraction, of course its easy for me to say!

Well, to be clear, he destroyed almost half my army break point single handed last game by turn 2, and was uninjured and in a position to achieve another flank charge into soft units on initiative.  Had I not gone out of my way to kill him, I suspect the game would have ended much sooner.

Still 10+ S&S attacks is going to hurt

hmm... not convinced of the value of stand and shoot vs Dragon Rider.  A unit of Cannons would have 4 stand-and-shoot shots, of which 2, on average, would hit - both of which are likely to be saved by a 3+ saving throw.   Add in a Hellblaster, and assume the Dragon Rider is foolish enough to charge the cannon stand next to it, rather than the other, and you're looking at 10 shots (including cannons - assuming no hellblaster malfunctions).  So figure 5 hits on average, and 3-4 saves from the Dragon Rider, leaving 1-2 unsaved if you're lucky.  You lose a unit, possibly 2 or more if there's an advance charge once he pulverises your guns.  He probably doesn't get injured and is free to wreck havoc havoc behind your lines and potentially doesn't even lose 1 off his army break point.  Being on a hill would help, but, in my view, wouldn't change the outcome significantly - particularly if the elf magic is in force.

Also they are not unkillable

 

A lot of responses seem to imply I am thinking of Dragon Riders as a doomsday unit, but rather I simply question; in a game which is generally played to 'break-point' how one might deal with the dragon rider who seems able to inflict an unbalanced amount of damage*; or...

Original Question:
Can anyone provide advice to deal with it and not lose 4-8 units in the process?

And thanks to the good suggestions thus far; Wierd Enchantment, flagellant deterrent, cannon and hellblaster deterrent.

* Let me be clear; if we played warmaster on points like WFB, I think that it would be hard for a Dragon Rider to ever achieve an equal value.

[Answer_Mod_Ithoriel]

"if we played warmaster on points like WFB" - standard victory conditions are, of course, based on points and losing a Dragon Rider can make winning a battle extremely difficult! Sometimes you are reduced to hunting enemy generals to secure a draw by forcing the enemy army to Withdraw.

I sometimes use Dragon Riders in 3,000+ point battles but rarely below that, they are just too expensive for the risk and for the damage they do.

Dragon mounts are a whole different matter, I take as many as I can in both my HE and Chaos armies

That's my take, anyway.

Mike