Charges question

[Edmund2011]

I have the following doubt about charges with a command order. I think corner to corner contact stops units and force them to fight, but would like to ask:

[Lex]

Option 1

Remember movement is stand based. So the 1st stand moves into central contact with the nearest stand of the target, the second stand slides in next to the first stand. and the last stand needs to maximimize frontage and remain in unit coherency.

This WILL allow all 2 blue units to participate in contact and "could" allow a lot of definsive fire if the blue units are missile armed. Also the stand that slid in next to the 1st stand will NOT be fighting "only to its front........"

[jchaos79]

I think the situation is this



The araby cavalry gets a command order to attack artillery. So first, move one stand of cavalry to get into contact with one stand of artillery (center of base's cavalry to center  base's artillery).

If they choose the left stand of artillery they get into contact corner to corner with the pikes. Did the charge stops and have to fight with pikes?

If they choose right stand of artillery they get into contact corner to corner with xbow. Did the charge stops, recieve 3 shots of volley and then get stucked and have to fight with Xbow?

Let's think they choose to move the first stand to artillery left base. Is this a incidental charge and bonus are lost?

Then the arab player has to move the second stand to maximize battle line. There are two options here:
Did they have to go to his initial target (artillery) and then get stucked with Xbow, suffer 3 arrow bolts?

or did they ignore the initial target (Artillery) and focus into pikes the actual charging unit?


Sorry for the long post and multi chooice questions.

If the answers of all my questions are YES, then the cavalry never reachs the artillery, in the charge.

[Edmund2011]

Ok,

Option 1 is the correct

JChaos, that's the situation, but I can't remember what happened in that battle of the pic... 

[jchaos79]

If I remember correctly we do option 2, as the order was charge to artillery. We feel that we were doing something wrong, but we agree to not stop the battle and continue the game with this option.

wow That's been a while since this game: the second palytest of Battle of Dreux. I had to search thorugh some games pic to be able to find the picture, but I remember clearly that I take that pic specificaly with the intention of posting here.


So, If I understand well... A single unit is not able to charge the artillery protected by two units. Enemy charging has to won one round of combat against one unit of defenders and then "advance accidentally" toward the artillery. right? or I am missing something?

[Lex]

Ordered move/charge CAN go against the cannon. Move 1st stand and have cannon shoot defensive.
Assuming the cannon does NOT destroy a stand, move the 2d stand in contact, IF this also contact the XBOW, then take more defensive fire. Contact with the Xbow is NO accidental contact, but a charge ! move, with bonus.
Assuming you still have a stand left after all that defensive fire, move the 3st stand in contact either to the left OR the right, remember that IF you bring it against the Xbow, you will be shot at again ! (by the two not engaged stands!!). You will stillbe fighting all 3 units anyway.....

[Lex]

If I remember correctly we do option 2, as the order was charge to artillery.

Actualy the order was to MOVE, and you can OPT your target to move into contact. You do NOT declare a target before rolling dice....!!

[Guthwine]

The attacking player can choose the target that is charged, so if you charge the cannons in this scenario:

1)move the closest stand into contact with the cannon
2)then the second stand is moved into contact
3)and then since the third stand cannot reach the cannon anymore it goes either in the front of the pikemen, or the crossbowmen. (see diagram 38.1) 

In some cases you may find that charging stands come
into contact with other enemy units positioned
alongside the first. These other units also count as
having been ‘charged’ and are drawn into the combat
engagement. Once the closest charger has moved, the
obligation for remaining chargers to maximise their
front edge contact extends to adjacent enemy units
and tends to result in more units being drawn into
the engagement.

4)carry out stand & shoot
5)carry out close combat but both of the charging stands and as well as the 2 stands of infantry should count as flanked.

So your Option 1 is correct.

[Lex]

The attacking player can choose the target that is charged, so if you charge the cannons in this scenario:

1)move the closest stand into contact with the cannon
2)then the second stand is moved into contact
3)and then since the third stand cannot reach the cannon anymore it goes either in the front of the pikemen, or the crossbowmen. (see diagram 38.1) 

In some cases you may find that charging stands come
into contact with other enemy units positioned
alongside the first. These other units also count as
having been ‘charged’ and are drawn into the combat
engagement. Once the closest charger has moved, the
obligation for remaining chargers to maximise their
front edge contact extends to adjacent enemy units
and tends to result in more units being drawn into
the engagement.

4)carry out stand & shoot
5)carry out close combat but both of the charging stands and as well as the 2 stands of infantry should count as flanked.

So your Option 1 is correct.

Remember Stand &Shoot is per stand charging !  It might influnce the number of stand reaching the enemy!!

I think be the latest rules you only count as flanked if "not fighting an anemy to your front" 

[Guthwine]

Really? Just looked it up and only found "Shots are worked out as soon as the charging unit has
finished its move."

And while I am looking.

Enemy facing own side or rear
This penalty applies to individual stands which have
an enemy stand’s front edge or front corner touching
their own side edge, rear edge or rear corner. Note
that only enemy front edges and corners impose this
penalty.

So both should be counting as flanked. (Which makes little difference in this case since both sides loose 2 attacks)

[Lex]

Really? Just looked it up and only found "Shots are worked out as soon as the charging unit has
finished its move."

D úh   8)Addled brain on an early saterday morning  I was confusing stands and units....   you are correct, the S&S is determined on figuring out which UNITS are contacted. It CAN  drop stands of that unit, and that WILL influence additional UNITS charging......  (and triggering more S&S)

And while I am looking.

Enemy facing own side or rear
This penalty applies to individual stands which have
an enemy stand’s front edge or front corner touching
their own side edge, rear edge or rear corner. Note
that only enemy front edges and corners impose this
penalty.

So both should be counting as flanked. (Which makes little difference in this case since both sides loose 2 attacks)

The units that slide in are flank-2-flank, in which case we dont apply that. But I can see that you deem the frontedge corner to be the determining factor. Those cases we only do when the charging unit would be in the side, and has a stand lined up so it only touches corner-2-corner with the defending stand.

[jchaos79]

Ok, sorry for being a pain. I get the correct attack configuration is OPTION 1 of Edmund diagram. But there is something that made me not feel right with this option:

Cavalry moves to contact.
Cavalry needs to pass through a gap between enemies to reach the artillery.
Can not find the sentence in the rulebook, but I guess units can not pass through enemies gaps lesser than 4 cm.

[Lex]

Ok, sorry for being a pain. I get the correct attack configuration is OPTION 1 of Edmund diagram. But there is something that made me not feel right with this option:

Cavalry moves to contact.
Cavalry needs to pass through a gap between enemies to reach the artillery.
Can not find the sentence in the rulebook, but I guess units can not pass through enemies gaps lesser than 4 cm.

Ahhh I see where you are going with that ......   had not considered that !!     Although strictly speaking you dont move "through" a gap.....  but I like your thinking !!

[Guthwine]

The gap rule, as Lex said, is only in effect when moving through enemies and has an exception for chargers:

p21

Note that although stands are
not permitted to pass between enemy stands as
described, this does not prevent them moving
between such stands to charge them, assuming there
is room to do so

[jchaos79]

Thanks to all of you, with Guthwine cotation, now is clear for me.