Magic Items Question

[schwager]

Hi all

Got a quick magic items question ahead of my next game against Chris B's Lizardman army tomorrow morning:

Can a Ring of Magic (or similar item) be used to get off a spell that has been dispelled with scroll in the same turn?

I can't 100% percent remember if he used the same character of two different ones to do it, but I wanna be prepared in case it comes up again... we all know he cheats, right? 

That damn Wings of the Jungle (or whatever it is called) helped him wipe out half my cavalry... twice now!

Many thanks in advance

[Lex]

I can't 100% percent remember if he used the same character of two different ones to do it, but I wanna be prepared in case it comes up again... we all know he cheats, right? 

Well. lets say he has got a good understanding of the shadowy side of the rulez.....

There is no rule that disallows casters to cast more then once, AFAIK. There IS the restriction of a unit being the target of a spell more then once per turn .......

what did HE use as argument ?

[schwager]

Thank you for the quick reply, Lex... he does indeed.

I didn't question it at the time (too caught up with getting minced), but thought about it on my way home.

So, are you saying he could use the same character to cast the spell again on the same unit, using the Ring of Magic (after I dispelled it), but not a different character?

Sorry, but I'm still a little confused about this.

[jchaos79]

I understood that ring of magic succeed the spell without rolling dice. (But only can cast a spell per turn)

If someone wants to cast two spells in a turn with the same mage he needs the wand of repetition.

In example, a mage succed in a spell, then the oposite mage dispell it with scroll of dispersion or a dwarf rune smith. Because the first spell is succed (but dispelled) the mage can use rod of repetition to cast another spell.

Remember a mage can only have ONE magic item. It is not possible to provide a mage with ring of magic and wand of repetition.

[Lex]

Per the original rulebook

page 72. Casting Spells

In his Shooting phase, each Wizard van cast one spell from the spelllist of his army

the loophole (at the end of that paragraph)

a spell can only be successfully cast on the same unit once in the same shooting phase

You Scroll (as per description on page 77)

.. can only be used once to nullify the effect of a spell an enemy Wizard has successfully cast....

The Ring of Magic does NOT allow a recast ! It allows the automatic cast of a spell, i.o.w ther eis no dice roll to establish success.

So with ONE caster that is a nono and impossible to peform
With two casters he could TRY this, but your counter would be to refer back to the main rule quote (page 72) and explain that as he already cast suucfull on that unit ONCE he can not do so again.

Obviously, next time he will have 2 units ready to play that trick on !!   

[schwager]

Awesome, thank you jchaos79 & Lex... I knew there was something fishy about this.
Will discuss it with Christian today.

Wish me luck for my next battle... Nurgle knows I'll need it

[jchaos79]

Luck men! if you take some shots of the battle will be great see them around

[schwager]

Right then, third game done and dusted. Some more harsh lessons have been taught... and hopefully learned from 

Would have loved to take pictures, but unfortunately my camera is currently on an overseas holiday with my GF.

As for the magic item question, I challenged Chris about it, armed with a print out of this conversation as a backup. He would have none of it (quote: Just read the bloody rules.) and quickly proceeded to find the relevant piece of text in the rules... which is in the description of the Scroll of Dispelling (p.77)*:
If a Wizard or a Dwarf Runesmith has the Scroll of Dispelling he can automatically cause an enemy's spell to fail.

So it's a failed spell, rather than a successful one, and thus could be cast again on the same unit with a different spellcaster.
As always, the devil is in the wording. Chris conceded, however, that the way this works is too powerful and should be fixed somehow. Luckily it didn't come up again in our last game.

So, any further thoughts on that from anyone?

* When I checked the rulebook that's currently up for download on the GW resources page, I noticed that the Scroll of Dispelling has the description of the Staff of Spellbinding, with the text from SoD nowhere to be found.

[jchaos79]

If I may ask, what was the diabolical plan of Chirs B?

never fight against/with lizardmen and have no idea of how to manage them

[schwager]

Well, it was all about getting that third unit of Cold One Riders into combat... just to make sure he'd wipe out my left flank entirely.

Lizardmen are hard as nails. Their heavy hitters easily match or outclass whatever Chaos can throw at them (especially when skulking around in the woods!).
I managed to take out a unit of Kroxigor with my Knights and some really lucky dice... then bounced off a unit of Skinks in the open, which ultimately ended the battle in Chris' favour. *groan*

Their magic (and conventional) shooting is great for breaking up advancing formations. They also have plenty of Terror (Stegadon, T-Rex, etc.).
The only way to keep the Lizardmen army in check is to get as many -1 command modifiers on them as possible (their one weak point IMO).
Cannon and such might be good against them, too... especially since Chris just loves to bunch them up in one big clump.

But honestly, my knowledge of the finer mechanics of the game is still very limited, so I'm mostly guessing here.

[BlackEd]

Too bad your opponent isn't following the rules on magic.

He casts -- and uses Ring of Magic -- and so the spell is successfully cast.

You use the Scroll of Dispelling -- and so the spell is dispelled -- no need to roll.

His argument goes like this -- the Scroll of Dispelling caused my spell to fail, so it never was cast.  Because it never was cast, I get to use my Ring of Magic again.  However, this overlooks the fact that if the spell was not cast in the first place, then you would have nothing to dispel.

In Warmaster, magic follows a sequence -- Check to see if the spell is cast.  (If you have a Ring of Magic then there is no need to roll the dice.)  Next, check to see if the spell was dispelled.  If the spell is dispelled, then this does not change th fact that the spellcaster successfully cast the spell.

Check the description of the Ring of Magic -- I'm sure it says that something like the spell is automatically successfully cast.

I remember there used to be some debate on this -- but Warmaster Magic is set up so that the Dispell gets the last word.

[schwager]

Hi BlackEd, thanks for your input.

Unfortunately that wasn't quite how it went:
He cast the spell (without the Ring of Magic), I dispelled it with my scroll (making it a failed cast), he used his second spellcaster with the Ring of Magic to cast the spell on the unit again (without needing to roll the dice).

It's the wording in the description for the Scroll that works in his favour that way... but I am more than happy to hear further counter arguments and present them to Chris for our next meeting.

Since the first time he cast it wasn't successful (due to being dispelled), he could cast on the same unit again.

Hope I've explained it better this time.

[Guthwine]

Allthough that doesnt change sequence.

A ring of magic is just an auto cast, so it doesnt matter if you use on your first try or the second try. Theres no difference between making to roll to cast or using the ring to cast.

A wizard can only cast a spell once per phase, so if he manages the roll to cast a spell, the wizard has done it, the spell is in effect.
So you choose to use your scroll to dispell it which takes away the active spell that was cast, so the wizard is done and cant cast any more.

No matter if you dispell it or not the spell was cast but thanks to the scroll the unit wasnt affected. The lizards felt the breeze of the jungle but it faded away.
But a second wizard could try to cast the same spell on the same unit after the dispell.

A wizard with a rod of repetition and an ring of magic could pull that off though.

[jchaos79]

Allthough that doesnt change sequence.

A wizard with a rod of repetition and an ring of magic could pull that off though.

I'm afraid a character is not allowed to carry two magic items.

[Guthwine]

You are right, of course. I thought the only rule was one per army.