Defended Steamtanks !

[jchaos79]

Driveback when defended ignore 1st hit, anything in the steamtank rules that is specific in this area ?? !! Apply that otherwise apply the GENERIC rule.

 

Sorry, not sure of understand that sentence ( ) can you express what happens with the driveback in other words?

thanks in advance, Lex

[Lex]

LOL...      no wprries, as I am harly a native english speaker/writer myself.

I mean to say:

Apply all driveback as per the GENERIC rules. As the SPECIFIC rule nominates the Steamtank as always defended, it will ignore on hit for the purpose of Driveback. In addition:

Steam Tanks cannot be driven back or routed by shooting. However - it is still deemed necessary to roll drive backs to determine if the Steam Tank becomes Confused on a roll of a 6.

So again, the Steamtank has a SPECIFIC rule: Roll all the "driveback"dice that remain after subtracting the 1st, and on a 6 it will confuse.

When in doubt, ruleswise:  Check the GENERIC rule first, apply the GENERIC rule UNLESS the unit(s) subject to the rule have SPECIFIC rules, in which case the SPECIFIC rule overrides the GENERIC rule.

[jchaos79]

all clear!

[Edmund2011]

The SPECIFIC rules states it will always count as being DEFENDED, so cannon shooting at Steamtank need 5+ to hit.

Ok!

[Guthwine]

But isnt the" ignore armor and hit in the open" a specific rule of the cannon?

p68 Advanced rules:

No Armour roll is made. In addition, fortified targets only count
as being defended (5+ to hit) and defended targets
count as being in the open (4+ to hit)

So even if the steam tank counts as defended he should be hit on a 4+ as well. Special steam tank rules makes him always defended and the special cannon rule takes that bonus away. All normal/generic shooting should still be on 5+.

[forbes]

You have two specific rules in conflict here

The Cannon reduce cover by one level and the Steam tank always count as defended.

The Kislev war wagon uses different wording

A laagered wagon counts as a defended unit.

so doesn't really help. Here I would say Cannon hit on a 4+.

I would probably lean to the Steam Tank being hit on 5+ by cannons as there is no armour save against cannon shot, even for the heavy armour of the Steam Tank.

[Guthwine]

I dont quite see the contradiction. The special rule of the steam tank is that it always counts as defended and the special rule of the cannon says that it ignores defended units. So the steam tank rule is nullified by the cannon.

Just like Infantry in terrain is always defendend, except when it gets shot by a cannon.

[jchaos79]

I dont quite see the contradiction. The special rule of the steam tank is that it always counts as defended and the special rule of the cannon says that it ignores defended units. So the steam tank rule is nullified by the cannon.

Just like Infantry in terrain is always defendend, except when it gets shot by a cannon.

Interesting idea, that is what I always understood the rule and I expressed it in the firsts posts (not expressed with the exactitud as guthwine do, but same idea)

[honestmistake]

My prefered interpretation would be that the always part of the Steam Tank rules should trump the base rules for the cannon both because it does say always and because, thematically, the bonus is due to massively heavy armour giving at least a little a little defence against the cannon barrage. Taking the Kislev War as a counterpoint, i would personally say that the cannon ignoring it's defended position would be correct as the bonus in this case is specifically due to it providing cover and it doesn't say it always counts as defended.

[Getlord]

I do not understand your point. If somethging always count as defended it is "just" defended, but always.
And all the units have to deal with that status. Always. Some of them deal by hitting on 5+ (and no charge bonus) some of them hitting on 4+ like cannon.

All defended targets, temporarily defended, occasionally defended and always defended targets are hit on 4+ by a cannon ball.
Defended is the status. It is not the probability to hit. The probability to hit is considered in completely different phase of the game. Let's say at the end of movement phase some units are defended, some not. Steam Tank commander does not have to worry about the cover - he is always defended. Then the Movement phase is finished. And then different units try to hit defended targets in the shooting phase.
Some of them are doing it on 5+ some on 4+.

And it is no generic versus special rule discussion here. That's how I see it.

[Lex]

I am swayed by the arguments    

I will scratch my earlier ones (later today) to avoid to much miscommunication. I concur that there is no need to weigh in generic vs specific in this case.

[StumpyCat]

As the Evil person who started all of  this I would like to say whoops 

 
As MrMistake points out the Steam Tank text was rewritten more recently than the cannon and I belive an oversight has occured.  Some poor bugger forgot that cannons have the specific rule.Hardly the end of the world really.
Personaly my opinion is that the Steam Tank text could read:
Because of its exceptionally heavy armour plating, a Steam Tank always counts as defended - so a 5 or 6 is normally required to inflict a hit from shooting or in combat. The only exception to this is cannon shot, as the fierce volleys from these weapons are known to shatter even the thickest armor.

Just a thought.

[honestmistake]

Or (if the Always defended really should mean ALWAYS) the rules could be ammended to:
"Because of its exceptionally heavy armour plating, a 5 or 6 is required to inflict a hit from shooting or in combat against the Steam Tank. All other rules regarding armour are applied as normal."



and yes, I do like bolding the word ALWAYS

[Edmund2011]

Or (if the Always defended really should mean ALWAYS) the rules could be ammended to:
"Because of its exceptionally heavy armour plating, a 5 or 6 is required to inflict a hit from shooting or in combat against the Steam Tank. All other rules regarding armour are applied as normal."

But the rule doesn't say that. 

I agree more with Getlord's point of view. The cannon always counts defended target as in the open, too.

[forbes]

This whole discussion does boil down to the use of the word ALWAYS in the steam tank description.

As I mentioned above, the Kislev War Wagon uses another form of words - it is hard to know if this is a deliberate decision or is just due to the different sentence structure.

Personally I quite like the steam tank being very hard to wound, but rather ineffectual at causing damage.

I lean to the side that the use of always, is meant to mean always, and overrides other rules. But I can understand the other interpretation. Is no one in contact with the person who drafted the revised steam tank rules?