Beastmen thoughts

[Guthwine]

Hi! First off, I love the idea of a beastmen army for Warmaster and I would definately be interested in buying some miniatures for them. So I read through the rules and I thought Id share my thoughts with you. These are just thoughts about the theory, I have not playtested them. (yet!)

1. I am not a fan of that special terrain rule, I just think its weird that either wood elves or beastmen can spawn forrests from out of nowhere. I would rather prefer a special rule for beastmen to ignore the -1 command reduction for forrests. (and only for forrests)

2. I always had the impression that beastmen did not use any missle weapons, am I wrong on that? Thats just a question, if they dont I guess they have been added to create some contrast to the chaos list.

3.Centigors: As they are only limited to 2/1000P, why not make them cavalry for 90 points just like squires and other types of light cav.

4.Chaos hounds: A maximum of 6 sounds very high as it gets you a breakpoint of 6 for just 360 points.

5.Doombull. It says that the unit can only take commands from him as long as he is attached to the unit. Which doesnt make much sense as he joins the unit at the end of command phase and leaves it at the beginning of the following command phase, doesnt he?

These are just a few thoughts about them, I think many of the issues will be clearer after a playtest game. I will be back..

[Lex]

The "extra" woods that those armies mention can play should IMO come from the total pointcost of the army (or at least partly so). Those represent the tendency of those armies to fight in or near their home turf.

[Bel]

2. I always had the impression that beastmen did not use any missle weapons, am I wrong on that? Thats just a question, if they dont I guess they have been added to create some contrast to the chaos list.

Herdkin and Centigors can use missile weapon in FB.

3.Centigors: As they are only limited to 2/1000P, why not make them cavalry for 90 points just like squires and other types of light cav.

Current version allows them to enter woods. Moreover it is a vector directed in a future - the testing the next (possible) version of light cavalry rules.

4.Chaos hounds: A maximum of 6 sounds very high as it gets you a breakpoint of 6 for just 360 points.

There is no large number of shock troops available in the list. It was just compensated with a Hounds.

5.Doombull. It says that the unit can only take commands from him as long as he is attached to the unit. Which doesnt make much sense as he joins the unit at the end of command phase and leaves it at the beginning of the following command phase, doesnt he?

IIRC that has to be 'as he is in touch with a unit' or a sort. 1 (max 2) orders - it is quite enough for 6cmd. Doombull is mainly a combat reinforcer, but not a useful character in general.

[azrael71]

I have played these a few times.
They are a very demanding army to play.

I will address the centigor issue as it has been an issue of mine since I compiled and modified the list (not the current version).
It was my thought that the centigors should be cavalry, based along the long edge but be allowed in woods.
This was decided against as no other army can do this (although the spider riders (cav) can?)

I am excited for this discussion to take place and the list evolve into a FUN, playable, balanced force as will hopefully happen with all the lists in the book.

As Lex has mentioned this will be a way for us to get new troop types into the game, but that would then involve the rewriting of most of the lists along with rebasing units

[DarkWingDuck]

I just spotted the Trial Armies lists, haven't tried any of them. So take my comments with a grain of salt.

But I do own a Beastman army for WHFB, so I understand how they "work" in that system, and I'm not 100% sure I see how they map between the two.

In WHFB, beastman are a high mobility, close combat, low armor, low leadership army. What this means is they hit hard, but fold fast if things don't go there way. I think we should keep that "theme" between the two lists.

So high mobility translates to high command values (or some modifiers), low armor/leadership translates to bad saving throws.

So with that in mind, here are my thoughts:
1. Army Wide Forest Rule: Beastmen aren't wood elfs. If you look at the map where they show up, they are mostly in the forest in the Old World ... but elsewhere they are in a wide variety of climates (from the northern wastes, to the jungles of the southlands, and to the highlands of Ind). Remove the -1 to command in forests, but don't give them extra woods.
2. Ambush: Make this the same as the Skaven ability to infiltrate, but only along the board edges. Simplifies the mechanics and simplifies the rules while giving the same basic effect.
3. Give beastherds/herdkin/centigors the Warband rule from Warmaster Ancients.
4. Centigors actually hit pretty hard in WHFB (as hard as knights on the charge, and harder afterwards). I understand we're trying to introduce the concept of light cavalry, but this is probably not the place to do it. (BTW, shouldn't they have a 30 cm move?)
5. Lessen all the saving throws by 1 (giving a discount of 5-10 pts). Beasts die in droves.
6. The Doombull is the general and the highest  leadership model in WHFB, I find it odd he's just a glorified killing machine in the Warmaster list. Although I do like the concept, not sure I'm a big fan of the naming. Perhaps call him a Bloodkine (which is the name of a Minotaur Champion) so as not to confuse things. Then you can give the Beastlord a magic item (+1 Att Sword) and model him as Minotaur if you want a Doombull General.
7. Bray-Shamans are as nasty as a Wargors in CC. Give him the +1 Att as well.

[CT Yankee]

For discusssion purposes, here's a list that have been testing that'sworked out pretty well.  It doesn't exactly fit with DarkWingDuck's take on how the army should be themed, but it's fun to play and seems to be well balanced (i.e., wins about half the time vs. the armies I've tested it against - HE, Empire and Dwarfs).  Maybe there are some ideas in here that you will like.

Well - I see that the list comes out all messed up, but I don't know how to fix it.  Hopefully you all can figure it out.....

BEASTS OF CHAOS (Updated based on comments received)
Army Selector

Troops                 Type   Attacks   Hits      Armour  Command    Size       Points   Min/Max  Special
                           
Beastman Herd   Infantry   3   4   6+   -   3   60   2/-   1*
Bestigors                Infantry  4   4   5+   -   3   110   1/4   
Minotaurs   Infantry   5   4   5+   -   3   125   -/1   2*
Centigors                Infantry   3   4   6+   -   3   95   -/1   3*
Tuskgor Chariots   Chariot   3   4   5+   -   3   110   -/3   
Chaos Hounds   Cavalry   2   3   0   -   3   30   -/4   
Chaos Giant   Monster   8   8   5+   -   3   150   -/*   4*
Chaos Spawn   Monster 3/3   4   3+   -   1   110   -/*   5*
Dragon Ogres   Monster   6   4   5+   -   3   250   -/*   
Shaggoth                Monster   6   4   4+   -   1   130   -/*   6*
Harpies                Monster  2   3   6+   -   3   65   -/*   7 *
                           
                           
Beastlord                General   +2   -   -   9   1   125   1/1   
Great Bray Shaman   General   +2   -   -   8      135   1/1   8*
Doombull                 Hero   +2   -   -   7   1   80   -/1   
Beastman Chief    Hero   +1   -   -   8   1   80   -/1   
Beastman Shaman   Wizard   +1   -   -   8   1   90   -/2   
Beast Mount   Mount   +1   -   -   -   1   10   -/1   
Gorgon                Mount   +2/3   -   -   -   1   70   -/1   9*
                           


Special Rules

MONSTERS – Chaos Monsters play an important role in Beast armies and a wide variety of them are available.  However, they cannot be taken in too great a quantity lest they become unruly and impossible to control.  No more than TWO monster units may be selected for every 1000 points in the army, and each type may only be selected once per 1000 points.  So, a 2000 point could include up to four Monster units, but no more than two of any one type.

GENERAL - Although this list contains two entries for General only one may be selected.  You may have your army lead by either a Beastlord or a Great Bray Shaman.  You may not select both.

NOTES:

1   Blood Lust – Beastman Herds are a bloodthirsty lot and so must always use their initiate to charge an enemy within range.  Exception: A Character within 20cm may prevent this initiative charge by making a successful roll against his Command value.  A character may make this test for any number of units and a failed test does not preclude him from making additional tests that turn.  Each unit must be tested for individually.  A +1 die roll modifier (i.e., a -1 command modifier) must be applied to the roll for each adjacent unit (to the unit being tested for) that has charged during the current initiative phase, either by choice or through failing a hold test.  The Blood Lust of the Herd also requires that it always make Pursuit and Advance moves, if possible.  These moves cannot be prevented or controlled by a character.

2   Minotaurs are also subject to Blood Lust as described above, but can ONLY be held in place by a Doombull. 

3   Centigors are an exception to normal infantry and have a movement rate of 30cm. Centigors also have a rather nasty disposition, even compared to other Beastmen, as well as a strong tendency to drink too much (way too much!).  Therefore, they may not be brigaded with any units other than other Centigors and suffer a double penalty for distance from a character issuing them commands (i.e., a +2 for 20-40 cm distant, +4 for 40-60 cm, etc.).

4*   As Orc Giant

5*   Use modified Chaos Spawn rules.

6*   Dragon Ogre Shaggoth are monstrous creatures and therefore cause Terror.  Shaggoth are infused with the power of natural lightning, allowing them re-roll one wound taken per turn (this also allows shaggoth to make a single save against 1 hit that would normally ignore armour).

7*   Standard rules for Harpies.

8*   Great Bray Shamans control the power of magic as well as the chaos hordes.  Great Bray shaman counts as a general but may cast magic. A Great Bray shaman may only order troops up to 80cms. Great Bray shamans have their own specific spells.

9*   The Gorgon is a big bull-like monster that beastmen characters may take as a mount.  The Gorgon causes Terror.  It has a magical gaze attack, which works like Dragons Breath.  If attached to a unit the gorgon may make three normal shooting attacks; range = 20cm.

Shaman Magic

Bloodrage – 4+ to cast.  Range 30cm.  1 friendly unit gains +1 attack per stand in the following combat.

Whip of Flames – 5+ to cast.  Range 30cm.  3 shooting attacks that ignore armour.  Requires line of site.

Stare of the Gorgon – 5+ to cast.  Range 30cm.  One friendly unit counts as being terrifying for the next combat.

Soulbattle – 6+ to cast. Range 60cm.  May be used on an enemy wizard or runesmith.  If cast on a wizard it may not cast spells in the next shooting phase.  If cast on a runesmith it may not use its anti-magic ability for the remainder of the beast man players shooting phase

Great Bray Shaman Magic

Bloodrage – 4+ to cast.  Range 30cm.  1 friendly unit gains +1 attack per stand in the following combat.

Whip of Flames – 5+ to cast.  Range 30cm.  3 shooting attacks that ignore armour.  Requires line of site.

Dark Calling – Great Bray Shamans Only
5+ to cast. Range 45cm. The shaman reaches into the darkest fury that lies within his troops, stirring it up until this evil, primitive rage explodes thrusting his troops unexpectedly forward into combat. The shaman can only cast this on Gor, Bestigor or Hound units that are in charge range of an enemy unit. If successful that unit may charge the closest enemy unit to it. The power of this chaotic rage is so infectious that any Gor, Bestigor or Hound unit adjacent to the charging unit will also charge on a 6+ (may move to support if no clear target is available). Line of site to targeted unit is required

Twisted Sanctuary – Great Bray Shamans Only
5+ to cast.  Range 60cm.  The shaman reaches into the heart of chaos to corrupt the surrounding lands; the forests darken and twist to the will of chaos, even the rocks and earth can succumb to the will of chaos. Any single enemy unit can be targeted when counted as defended (even if engaged in combat). The unit will automatically lose its defended status. (Unless the defended status is a natural ability i.e. Ghosts).

[azrael71]

After a quick browse this looks good, I have yet to compare it with the list in the Trail army book.
I do question the 2 extra spells though.
That list took a lot of debating to get where it is.
This is one of the problems with a list not 'officially' published by GW.
If it had been printed in warmag then people say ok that list is at least semi-official.
Where as a community webzine is not always taken as seriously

[CT Yankee]

I think the Webzine is great, as is this forum.  They're great places to kick ideas around and just have fun with this little hobby of ours. Perhaps we can even re-live the "Maximum Warmaster" glory days (for those of you who remember them!).

Regarding new army lists, given that GW is not really supporting WM much anymore I question whether new "official" armies will ever be published.  But I see no problem with "Fan Lists".  If people like 'em, great - if not, that's OK too.  I think they're a lot of fun and I enjoy making them.  I've also got home-brewed lists for Ogre Kingdoms, Estalia (draft) and a Tolkienesque Entish/Elvish army.  Perhpas I'll clean 'em up and post 'em here if I get a chance.  I also started an Ind (i.e., Indian type) army but kinda hit a wall with it.  Maybe I'll drag it out and try again.

[azrael71]

I agree, my point is when it comes down to which beastmen list (for example) is the definitive list.
This has certainly happened with wood elves with there being at least 4 public lists in existence.

[Stomm]

I agree, my point is when it comes down to which beastmen list (for example) is the definitive list.
This has certainly happened with wood elves with there being at least 4 public lists in existence.

Well that's easy, its whichever one I like the look of 

[Guthwine]

2 generals? What happens if the first one doesnt roll a succesful order? Does the commandphase end like with every other army or does the second general get to continue with his orders?

[jchaos79]

I am not very familiarize with Warhammer beastmen list, so I do not know the fine detail.

At first sight the list seem quite hard: 2 generals, 2 sets of spells, tough and nasty units (well I think as the beastmen should be).

In my opinion I will go for standard 1 general. But if it is a charecteristic feature of beastmen having two generals, then could be the "special feature of the list"

I like the simplicity of warmaster with spells, usually 4 per army: one ofensive, other defensive, other for command, and the fourth in the mood of the feature army. (in general terms). So going with two diferent sets of spells could be nices again if the besatments in WH has these as special feature and then turn to the special feature of the warmaster list.

Last criticize (sorry I am not native english and I do not know if criticize word has strong or bad meaning in english, but I use it in the positive way) in my humble opinion, I see comand 9 maybe too high for a non-human race. Well Elf and dwarfs are the "elders" and so on, so they use to have 10. Maybe beastmens are more in the mood of orcs or non civilizated cultures, so I would go for comand 8 with nasty and hard units (as they have) and the rule of blood lust, that I think is cool for this list. Maybe this blood lust could be "special feature of the army" instead having 2 sets of spells or 2 generals.

In general I like the list a lot, and if I have the figures I am sure I will test it. So I hope I could explain myself. Thanks for sharing your effort making it

[CT Yankee]

Thanks for all the comments.  I see that I need to clarify one thing on the list - you can only have one General.  There are two choices on the list but you have to pick one or the other, you can't take both.  So the only way you can get the two extra Great Bray Shaman only spells is by taking him as your General, and he is the only one who can use them (while NOT being able to use the Stare of the Gorgon or Soulbattle spells himself - i.e., he still only get 4 spells).

I considered the idea of having the max Command of 8 but think, maybe, this makes them too much like Orcs.  I think the Beastlord should be more cunning and intelligent than an Orc so made him a 9.  However, it would be wholly appropriate for the Great Bray Shaman to have a Command value of 8.  This keeps with the Chaotic nature of the list and makes it a bit more bifficult to decide which General to use.  With a CV of eight his Point cost would be lowered to 135.

I have updated the list accordingly.

[CT Yankee]

I agree, my point is when it comes down to which beastmen list (for example) is the definitive list.
This has certainly happened with wood elves with there being at least 4 public lists in existence.

Well that's easy, its whichever one I like the look of 

Exactly!  WM is a game, after all.  Try them all and use the one you have the most fun with. 

[Lex]

I agree, my point is when it comes down to which beastmen list (for example) is the definitive list.
This has certainly happened with wood elves with there being at least 4 public lists in existence.

Well that's easy, its whichever one I like the look of 

Exactly!  WM is a game, after all.  Try them all and use the one you have the most fun with. 

We actualy did put a lot of time and effort in the Community Armylists to avoid the "whatever I like the look off" factor and allow these lists to become established lists for tournament play. The "I like the look" in friendly play is never a problem, but in competition is all to often is not the LOOK, but the (potential) for winning with a list.

Warmuster is set up and MEANT to be a place where stuff is available for all, where some form or format of consensus is agreed upon, so that people can also enjoy events with the some more off-kilter army variations!