Scouting?

[empireaddict]

I understand that back in the ‘good old days’ of big WM tournaments, ‘scouting points’ were used.  This got me thinking and so here is a suggestion to make the start of games more interesting and perhaps encourage more balanced armies.  Feedback welcome; especially from play-testing!

WMF SCOUTING

To represent the pre-battle struggle for information between opposing armies’ scouts and their commanders carrying out personal reconnaissance, an army’s scouting points are calculated as follows. Fractions are rounded up.

ROLE | SCOUTING POINTS | TROOP TYPES

Flyers | 3 | any flying unit or any character on a flying mount.

Scouts | 2 | any unit of cavalry with 0 or 6+ armour; Dwarf Rangers; Skaven Gutter Runners; Vampire Counts Ethereal Hosts; non-flying command 10 characters.

Patrols | 1 | any unit of cavalry with 5+ armour; non-flying command 9 characters.

Piquets | 0.5 | any unit of shooting infantry with 0 or 6+ armour; non-flying command 8 characters.

Players first decide whether or not to commit a unit or character to scouting.  Each player then rolls 2D6 and adds this to the number of committed scouting points. 

The player with the higher total places all of their committed scouting units and characters within their normal deployment zone.  Then the player with the lower total must place all of their units and characters within their normal deployment zone.  The other player then places the remainder of their units.

[jchaos79]

OK, seems interesting. Really cool and easy at first sight.

Sounds good to me this house rule.

But thinking about it, if you succeed to scout you could deploy your army knowing the place of enemies position. But that is not allways or necessary good for you. Maybe the real interest is to deploy first. I mean, artillery and heavy cavalry are typically elements which lead the develptmenet of the battle depending of where they are deployed. So if you fail to scout could be great for you because then you choose where to put your whole army first (including artillery, chariots and heavy cav) and grab/hold the elements of terrain you desire... Just a thought not a criticisim.

As I said I like the rule and I will give it a try.

[Guthwine]

Sounds good, but will it really change anything? I mean army setup isnt as important in Warmaster as it is in WHF as you have more room to maneuver.
Sure there are situations where you realize that you put a brigade in the wrong spot but usually you wont be punished for that in the first round.

I know the players from our group here wont change their heavy cavalry for a chance to deploy differently.

Another thing would be to make scout units deploy 20cm ahead of the army. You dedicate scout troops (everything from 0+ to 6SV and cmd 7 or 8 characters) and those troops can be deployed up to 20cm ahead of the army.

[empireaddict]

jchaos79, Guthwine,
Thanks very much for the feedback.  A couple of thoughts in reply ...

Regarding ‘grab/hold the elements of terrain you desire’, I’m not sure what you mean.  If you are setting up in the same deployment zone as normal, you would be placing on hills or in woods there anyway.

Regarding scouts being further forward, I like that idea and will give it some thought.  My overall intent was to make the start more interesting by changing the deployment sequence, but without unbalancing the overall game.

[Happymcclap]

I like it, nice and simple as all good rules should be

I'd possibly change it so that the winner of the dice roll can chose whether or not set up the non scouting portion of their force 1st or 2nd and Guthwines suggestion of forcing the scouts to deploy ahead of your non scouting portion sounds lie a good tweak, also shouldn't Empire Skirmishers be ranked as Scout [2]?

[empireaddict]

Happymcclap,
Thanks for the two suggestions. 

Because a player has the option of not committing anything to scouting, they could thereby increase their chances of ‘losing’ anyway.  So, following your 'keep it simple' philosophy, I'm not sure it's needed.

I also had a long think about Empire skirmishers.  I don’t think they should count because they’re only a single stand and so would have a disproportionate effect, they are permanently attached to a unit (including crossbows that already count) rather than act independently, and they aren’t missile infantry (that would normally be used as piquets).

[empireaddict]

Thanks to everyone who gave the Scouting Rules a go last weekend. I've cleaned them up a bit, included some trial army units, and - by Lex's suggestion - included an optional layer for friendly and/or scenario-based games. So, here's the next version for further testing and discussion:

WMF TRIAL SCOUTING RULES (v1.3)

To represent the pre-battle struggle for information between opposing armies’ scouts, and their commanders carrying out personal reconnaissance, an army’s scouting points are calculated as follows. Fractions are rounded up.

ROLE | SCOUTING POINTS | TROOP TYPES

Flyers | 3 | any flying unit or any flying character or character on a flying mount; Waywatchers.

Scouts | 2 | any unit of cavalry with 0 or 6+ armour; Rangers; Gutter Runners; Ethereal Hosts; Dryads; non-flying command 10 characters.

Patrols | 1 | any unit of cavalry with 5+ armour; Glade Guard; Beastherds; non-flying command 9 characters.

Piquets | 0.5 | any unit of shooting infantry with 0 or 6+ armour; non-flying command 8 characters.

Players first decide which units and/or characters they wish to commit to scouting.  Each player then rolls 2D6 and adds this to their number of committed scouting points. 

The player with the higher total places their committed scouting units and/or characters within their normal deployment zone.  Units which are allowed to infiltrate or ambush do not need to be placed at this stage.

Next the player with the lower total must place all of their units and characters within their normal deployment zone.  Finally, the player who ‘won’ the scouting roll then places the remainder of their units in their deployment zone.

OPTIONAL RULES FOR SCENARIO GAMES

If a player ‘wins’ the scouting roll by more than +5 they can elect for all, some or none of their committed scouting characters/units to appear from flanking table edges during subsequent command phases.  Rolls can be made for either single characters/units or groups of them.  Rolls do not have to be made in a command phase, but once a ‘place on the table edge’ result has been obtained, it must be obeyed.

Modifiers:
Turn 1, minus 1 | Turn 3, plus 1 | Turn 4 or later, plus 2.

Results:
0 or less | In their haste to arrive they have been ambushed and destroyed.
1-2 | They have not yet reached the battlefield.
3-4 | Place on the table side edge (up to opponent’s deployment zone) but cannot be given orders.
5-6 or more | Place on the table side edge (up to opponent’s deployment zone) and can be given orders.

If a player ‘wins’ the scouting roll by more than +10 then their infantry scouts can be infiltrated on to the table in the same manner as Skaven Gutter Runners.

[empireaddict]

Reading through the additional army lists, I realised that I'd not included Centigors (Beastmen list).  They're listed as having similar attibutes to Dwarf Rangers, so I've put them in that category in this updated version of the scouting rules:

WMF TRIAL SCOUTING RULES (v1.4)

To represent the pre-battle struggle for information between opposing armies’ scouts, and their commanders carrying out personal reconnaissance, an army’s scouting points are calculated as follows. Fractions are rounded up.

ROLE | SCOUTING POINTS | TROOP TYPES

Flyers | 3 | any flying unit or any flying character or character on a flying mount; Waywatchers.

Scouts | 2 | any unit of cavalry with 0 or 6+ armour; Rangers; Gutter Runners; Ethereal Hosts; Dryads; Centigors; non-flying command 10 characters.

Patrols | 1 | any unit of cavalry with 5+ armour; Glade Guard; Beastherds; non-flying command 9 characters.

Piquets | 0.5 | any unit of shooting infantry with 0 or 6+ armour; non-flying command 8 characters.

Players first decide which units and/or characters they wish to commit to scouting.  Each player then rolls 2D6 and adds this to their number of committed scouting points. 

The player with the higher total places their committed scouting units and/or characters within their normal deployment zone.  Units which are allowed to infiltrate or ambush do not need to be placed at this stage.

Next the player with the lower total must place all of their units and characters within their normal deployment zone.  Finally, the player who ‘won’ the scouting roll then places the remainder of their units in their deployment zone.

OPTIONAL RULES FOR SCENARIO GAMES

If a player ‘wins’ the scouting roll by more than +5 they can elect for all, some or none of their committed scouting characters/units to appear from flanking table edges during subsequent command phases.  Rolls can be made for either single characters/units or groups of them.  Rolls do not have to be made in a command phase, but once a ‘place on the table edge’ result has been obtained, it must be obeyed.

Modifiers:
Turn 1, minus 1 | Turn 3, plus 1 | Turn 4 or later, plus 2.

Results:
0 or less | In their haste to arrive they have been ambushed and destroyed.
1-2 | They have not yet reached the battlefield.
3-4 | Place on the table side edge (up to opponent’s deployment zone) but cannot be given orders.
5-6 or more | Place on the table side edge (up to opponent’s deployment zone) and can be given orders.

If a player ‘wins’ the scouting roll by more than +10 then their infantry scouts can be infiltrated on to the table in the same manner as Skaven Gutter Runners.

[David Wasilewski]

It's an interesting idea and it works with conventional armies pitched against each other.
Not so sure it represents some races though. Skaven may struggle unless they field a really gutter runner heavy army? They would 'lie low' underground and suddenly 'erupt'.

Not sure how you would represent this though.

Hmmmmm

Dave

[empireaddict]

I see your point, but I’m not sure that under these Scouting rules the Skaven list is worse off than, say, Dwarves or Empire. 

In a 2,000 point army the Skaven can have up to 8 units of Gutter Runners (16 scouting points) 4 Jezzails (2) and will presumably have a hero or two (1) plus the general (1).  That’s potentially 20 points, although I concede it might be low teens if it doesn’t max out on Gutter Runners.  Regarding ‘lie low then erupt’, isn’t that what the infiltration rule does to some extent?  And Gutter Runners can be committed to scouting without having to be placed if their army ‘wins’ the scouting.

At 2,000 points Dwarves are limited to 4 Rangers (8 points), there’s no limit to handgunners but I’ve rarely seen Dwarf armies with more than a few (1 or 2), general (2) hero & runesmith (1) and perhaps a (highly vulnerable) Gyrocopter (3).  That’s only 14/15 points.

Fairly standard 2,000 point Empire army with general (1), a hero on a griffon (3), four crossbows (2) and four Pistoliers (4).  That’s only 10.  But given that the army usually has lots of slow-moving knights, steam tanks and cannons, getting out-scouted seems fairly realistic.  In that regard, the Skaven army would presumably have similar encumbrance in the form of warp cannons, doom wheels and/or screaming bell?

Bottom line?  Armies with lots of light cavalry and flyers will have a distinct scouting advantage, but the rules are written so that being out-scouted is not a huge problem.  Some players might just shrug their shoulders and take more heavy cavalry instead.  And, of course, there’s the random effect of the 2D6!

[empireaddict]

Apologies, v1.4 added Centigors, but I forgot to delete Beastherds as I had intended.  So here's v.15.  As before comments and suggestions from playtesting most welcome.

WMF TRIAL SCOUTING RULES (v1.5)

To represent the pre-battle struggle for information between opposing armies’ scouts, and their commanders carrying out personal reconnaissance, an army’s scouting points are calculated as follows. Fractions are rounded up.

ROLE | SCOUTING POINTS | TROOP TYPES

Flyers | 3 | any flying unit or any flying character or character on a flying mount; Waywatchers.

Scouts | 2 | any unit of cavalry with 0 or 6+ armour; Rangers; Gutter Runners; Ethereal Hosts; Dryads; Centigors; non-flying command 10 characters.

Patrols | 1 | any unit of cavalry with 5+ armour; Glade Guard; non-flying command 9 characters.

Piquets | 0.5 | any unit of shooting infantry with 0 or 6+ armour; non-flying command 8 characters.

Players first decide which units and/or characters they wish to commit to scouting.  Each player then rolls 2D6 and adds this to their number of committed scouting points. 

The player with the higher total places their committed scouting units and/or characters within their normal deployment zone.  Units which are allowed to infiltrate or ambush do not need to be placed at this stage.

Next the player with the lower total must place all of their units and characters within their normal deployment zone.  Finally, the player who ‘won’ the scouting roll then places the remainder of their units in their deployment zone.

OPTIONAL RULES FOR SCENARIO GAMES

If a player ‘wins’ the scouting roll by more than +5 they can elect for all, some or none of their committed scouting characters/units to appear from flanking table edges during subsequent command phases.  Rolls can be made for either single characters/units or groups of them.  Rolls do not have to be made in a command phase, but once a ‘place on the table edge’ result has been obtained, it must be obeyed.

Modifiers:
Turn 1, minus 1 | Turn 3, plus 1 | Turn 4 or later, plus 2.

Results:
0 or less | In their haste to arrive they have been ambushed and destroyed.
1-2 | They have not yet reached the battlefield.
3-4 | Place on the table side edge (up to opponent’s deployment zone) but cannot be given orders.
5-6 or more | Place on the table side edge (up to opponent’s deployment zone) and can be given orders.

If a player ‘wins’ the scouting roll by more than +10 then their infantry scouts can be infiltrated on to the table in the same manner as Skaven Gutter Runners.

[David Wasilewski]

In a 2K skaven army no one would be likely to ever want to field more than 4 units of gutter runners? With the other options you mentioned, that would only give them 12 scouting points, which is less than the dwarf list you mention? Skaven being outscouted by dwarves doesn't sound right to me really. Skaven are a fast flowing "light infantry" type army whereas dwarves are a heavy infantry and war machine based army. If the skaven field any warmachines (which , if they want to compete against cavalry they are going to have to really) then they are really knackered.

I like the Kings of War scouting units get an extra free 'scouting move' after deployment but before the game begins rule. This may be less decisive than the enemy turns up on your flanks option?

Anyway, you have come up with an interesting option which I will share with my group and which we may use for scenarios. Thanks for all the work on the ideas!

Dave

[empireaddict]

OK, I see the point.  My initial thought is that the Skaven rat swarms would be a logical inclusion at one point per unit?  What do you think?

[David Wasilewski]

Now that would work as a 2K army is likely to have between 4 and 8 rat swarm units.

Yes it makes sense "fluff wise" too as in the books it sometimes refers to rats "listening in" on people's conversations. They are the 'eyes and ears' of the skaven and take a kind of "light cavalry" role on the battlefield (in so far as such rubbish troops can!).

Good idea.

Dave

[empireaddict]

OK, sold.  Herewith version 1.6:

WMF TRIAL SCOUTING RULES (v1.6)

To represent the pre-battle struggle for information between opposing armies’ scouts, and their commanders carrying out personal reconnaissance, an army’s scouting points are calculated as follows. Fractions are rounded up.

ROLE | SCOUTING POINTS | TROOP TYPES

Flyers | 3 | any flying unit or any flying character or character on a flying mount; Waywatchers.

Scouts | 2 | any unit of cavalry with 0 or 6+ armour; Rangers; Gutter Runners; Ethereal Hosts; Dryads; Centigors; non-flying command 10 characters.

Patrols | 1 | any unit of cavalry with 5+ armour; Glade Guard; Rat Swarms; non-flying command 9 characters.

Piquets | 0.5 | any unit of shooting infantry with 0 or 6+ armour; non-flying command 8 characters.

Players first decide which units and/or characters they wish to commit to scouting.  Each player then rolls 2D6 and adds this to their number of committed scouting points. 

The player with the higher total places their committed scouting units and/or characters within their normal deployment zone.  Units which are allowed to infiltrate or ambush do not need to be placed at this stage.

Next the player with the lower total must place all of their units and characters within their normal deployment zone.  Finally, the player who ‘won’ the scouting roll then places the remainder of their units in their deployment zone.

OPTIONAL RULES FOR SCENARIO GAMES

If a player ‘wins’ the scouting roll by more than +5 they can elect for all, some or none of their committed scouting characters/units to appear from flanking table edges during subsequent command phases.  Rolls can be made for either single characters/units or groups of them.  Rolls do not have to be made in a command phase, but once a ‘place on the table edge’ result has been obtained, it must be obeyed.

Modifiers:
Turn 1, minus 1 | Turn 3, plus 1 | Turn 4 or later, plus 2.

Results:
0 or less | In their haste to arrive they have been ambushed and destroyed.
1-2 | They have not yet reached the battlefield.
3-4 | Place on the table side edge (up to opponent’s deployment zone) but cannot be given orders.
5-6 or more | Place on the table side edge (up to opponent’s deployment zone) and can be given orders.

If a player ‘wins’ the scouting roll by more than +10 then their infantry scouts can be infiltrated on to the table in the same manner as Skaven Gutter Runners.