Warmaster advice - 3000 pts. Empire vs. Chaos

[Draccan]

Hi

I have a 3000 points game set for Sunday Sept. 21st.

Here is the army list I am toying with:
 315 - 7 Halberdiers
195 - 3 Handgunners
330 - 6 Crossbowmen
210 - 3 Flagellants
125 - 5 Skirmishers
550 - 5 Knights
190 - 2 Pistoliers
100 - 2 Helblaster
255 - 3 Cannon
260 - 2 Steam Tank
205 - 1 General
- 1 Griffon (80)
160 - 2 Hero
105 - 2 Wizard
- 1 War Altar (15)
= 3000 pts.
http://wm-selector.appspot.com/army_selector.html?list=empire&label=&print=&0=7&1=3&2=6&3=3&4=5&5=5&6=2&7=2&8=3&9=2&10=1&10-0=1&11=2&12=2&12-1=1
Army is already based but unfortunately unpainted...

My concern is that I have 33 units and 17 breakage and my friend can easily muster 25/13:
 450 - 3 Chaos Warriors
180 - 3 Chaos Marauders
210 - 2 Ogres
220 - 2 Trolls
270 - 3 Marauder Horsemen
200 - 1 Chaos Knights
150 - 5 Chaos Hounds
130 - 2 Harpies
500 - 2 Dragon Ogres
220 - 2 Chaos Spawn
225 - 1 General
- 1 Chaos Dragon (100)
160 - 2 Hero
90 - 1 Sorcerer
----------------------------------------------------------------
3005 - 25/13 (five pts. too much - but this is approximately what he has, not what he will field)..
http://wm-selector.appspot.com/army_selector.html?list=chaos&label=&print=&0=3&1=3&2=2&3=2&4=3&5=1&6=5&8=2&9=2&10=2&11=1&11-0=1&12=2&13=1

My army list does not give me much in terms of advantage of numbers. Almost all his troops are hard-hitting with high armour saves.
My reasoning around my army is that if I focus on shooting I can maybe break his lines with my no-save cannons and steam tanks and other shooting can drive him off.
The rest of my army does look rather fragile compared to his high-save, hard-hitting force.

I took the Griffon, steam tanks and War Altar more than anything because I wanted these iconic models on the table.

My questions are:
1. Is my army list viable? What would YOU change?
2. How useful are Wizards really compared with another halberdier unit?
3. How many heroes incl. general is needed / optimal for 3000 pts.?
4. How do you use brigades most optimal in an Empire army?
5. How do you field and protect cannons / steam tanks? Do you gather the cannons near each other or spread them out and do you use particular units to protect them?
6. How best to use a General on a Griffon (do's and don'ts)?
7. How best to break a chaos line?
8. How to best combat the many fast movers?

[Geep]

I'd say your army is quite viable. Most of his stuff is actually very lightly armoured (by Chaos standards), so your light shooting (Crossbows and handguns) should really hurt if you can concentrate the fire. You'll need to position the cannons (and units around the cannons) carefully, to block line of sight and make sure they don't get wasted on light units. I'd put the flagellants on artillery guarding duty- you want them charging off after harpies and hitting them very hard, but against regular chaos troops they're too easy to draw out and kill without making a good account of themselves.
By the time he reaches your lines you should easily have more numbers, even if it's just by taking stands off him rather than whole units.

A change I'd make (to both lists) is putting a hero on the monstrous mount, not the general. You don't want to risk the general in combat, and you don't want to waste the griffon/dragon. I can see why you may want to keep it as-is though to represent Karl Franz.

With the amount of shooting you have I'd consider wizards pretty useful. They're able to deliver that extra hit here or there which may cause a stand to be removed.

How many characters for 3000pts? No idea. I like to plan on at least 2 per 1000pts, but it'll really depend on the terrain, how mobile you want to be, and whether the dice like you or not.

I'll leave the other questions to the Empire experts.

[Dave]

I'd try to sneak in one, maybe two more heroes into the empire army and maybe one into the Chaos army.

[Stormwind]

As a Chaos player I am pretty much terrified of cannon as I have NOTHING to reply to it with!  All I can do is threaten with my harpies.

So yeah looks pretty good to me. =-)

[Draccan]

Thanks all for great advice. Very useful.
And oh Karl Franz is not exactly a friend. When I paint up my "Empire" it will be as Marienburgers..

Regarding cannons, do Chaos really need an answer, don't they just charge your lines?

And since you have to always shoot at the closest target with your handgunners and crossbowmen concentrating fire is not that easy I assume? I mean if the chaos line move in tandem... I guess counter charge to stall some units so fire can concentrate on the remaining is the way to go?

[Stormwind]

Long range missile attacks don't need to kill stands, they just need to disrupt my formations.

[Edmund2011]

Hi,

IMO if you want to move your Empire army you will need one or two extra heros. Sometimes is more important to be able to move than have a few units more. With 3K I would take more than one Griffon and put them in Heros, it will really help to punch in combat where/when needed.

About artillery, I like to gather them, but it will depend on your tactic and plan. Don't isolate steam tanks much if possible.

Low breakpoint is critical for Chaos, and remember that probably your battle-line will be greater than your opponent, try to exploit flanks with cav while Chaos march "towards the sound of the guns" .

Let us know!

[marell le fou]

Same opinion.

More heroes. You will have more units than your openent, you must take advantage in that. You must be sure your orders must pass in that purpose.

A second Griffin could be very interesting. Take as many canons and steam tank as you can.

Use your Knights to take flanks and help during hand to hand combat (that will be frequently hard).

Mounted Pistoliers can be a pain in the ass of your ennemy. Their weapons are precisely destined to be used against well protected targets.

[Draccan]

Great suggestions. And great to see this place so lively!
The question then persist, what to drop to fit in another Hero and maybe a Griffon.

I wonder if the helblaster(s) are worth it?

I could drop one hellblaster out of two and reduce from five to four knights to fit a hero and a griffon? Or drop one helblaster, 1 halberdier and 1 handgunner unit to fit the hero and griffon.

My concern is that four knights are too little...

[jchaos79]

My questions are:
1. Is my army list viable? What would YOU change?
Yes it is viable. Nº of characters depend of nº of brigades. As a guide, General y heros could lead 2 brigades each, and wizard could lead 1 brigade. So you could add a hero or swap a wizard for a hero.

But being warmaster a game of tactic movement, having characters gives more choice of fullfil the tactical plan you elaborate.

Your list is strong in powder, that is cool against chaos, but remember shooting units do not win the battle alone.


2. How useful are Wizards really compared with another halberdier unit?
Wizards could lead brigades with no decisive roles (move artillery, move reserve units, gather disbanded units). And could help with lighting bolts in the shoot phase (offensive role). Stop the charge of a single enemy unit (defensive role), made a unit of your army move twice (in some moments this is really good, command role), and move instantly to any part of the table (non very interesting role).

Halberdier unit is the backbone of your army, the way you rise your breakpoint and the bricks of your "defensive wall". Another brick on the wall is always wanted.

If you have enough halberdiers to make a solid "wall", then take the wizard. If you are lacking of halberdiers or low breakpoint, then go for a halberdier.


3. How many heroes incl. general is needed / optimal for 3000 pts.?
see1. But there are no optimal configuration. Depend if you play offenisvely (lots of characters) / defensive (few characters).


4. How do you use brigades most optimal in an Empire army?
There are a lot of configuration, and not always are optimal for all the players. Depend of the way you lead your army.
But try to:
Artilery brigade: protect your cannons
Hard hitting brigade: use flagellant in the first row, they will not be stopped by shooting
Hard hitting brigade: gatther some knights
backbone of the army brigade: 2 halberdiers+2 crossbowman



5. How do you field and protect cannons / steam tanks? Do you gather the cannons near each other or spread them out and do you use particular units to protect them?

Depend of the way you are playing.
You could gather cannons and concentrate fire to blow your enemy up.
You could see the cannons as element to stop the enemy advance, making "forbiden corridors" for your enemies by the menace of be shooted. This way you could control (more or less) the movement of your enemy. Spreading the cannons could be interesting in this way.

Xbowmen are cheap and works fine as artillery bodyguards
 

6. How best to use a General on a Griffon (do's and don'ts)?

General could fly and move from side to side of the battle quickly to give the orders where are needed: to flank withe the cavalry, or to approach those cannons to hit the enemy flank, or gather inf brigades making a wall of sharp halberdiers, and so on.

If you are a gambler player and the chaos dragon+kingts starts to make really hurt, then you could try to enter in a balance combat and negate the fear of the dragon with your griffon. This is risky, but is also very brave and spectacular (but ... who wants to live forever, and die old upon a lonely throne )

7. How best to break a chaos line?
Some people should say artillery and shooting. The idea is good but is difficult (not imposible) to stop chaos with shooting.

Use terrain. The way of defeating the chaos furius attack is using wisely the terrain and defending position and also being bold to attack them. I mean not stay the whole game in defending position. Warmaster is a game which prizes the "attack player". Empire player could not be the attack player in every turn, but need to attack if you want to win the battle.


8. How to best combat the many fast movers?
With more men and authority. I mean fast movers usually isolate themselves trying to flank or moving fast to attack some position. If you have more units than the fast attack enemy, and they protect each others (making big brigades, in example) your men could envelope the isolated fast movers.

To sum up, keep a  coherence body of your army with defined battlelines. This way fast movers could harm you but not rip your army.


hope the answers helps or at least have fun with them

[Draccan]

Thanks for the detailed response! Very useful!!

[empireaddict]

1. Is my army list viable? What would YOU change?
Generally agree with others’ advice.  Probably needs some extra command - I would go for an extra Wizard and least one extra Hero at 3k.

2. How useful are Wizards really compared with another halberdier unit?
I always go for the maximum number of Empire wizards.  They’re very cheap and at 4+ Weird Enchantment is always good for disrupting those cavalry brigades that are trying to move quickly through the 60cm of cannon range.  And the fireball along a line of engaged units can swing a big melee in your favour.

3. How many heroes incl. general is needed / optimal for 3000 pts.?
See answer 1.

4. How do you use brigades most optimal in an Empire army?
I used to default to the maximum 4 units but now, especially with cavalry I’m tending towards 2 or 3 as that gives more movement options and greater cavalry ‘cover‘, especially on a crowded table.  Currently experimenting with 2 Halberdiers in column with a Helblaster in between them.  Halberdiers always in column to get the benefits of support and with Skirmishers at the front to get the extra attack.

5. How do you field and protect cannons / steam tanks? Do you gather the cannons near each other or spread them out and do you use particular units to protect them?
Steam tanks operate best on their own.  If they are grouped with other units then those units take the hits, combat is lost and the steam tank evaporates.  But on its own it’s harder to crack - but don’t push it out too far.  For the cannons - one or two units with pistoliers to their left and right.  Best protection against flyers and other threats.  Even better if there’s a line of crossbows 15-20cm behind that brigade so that if flyers land behind they get shot at before any subsequent initiative attack.

6. How best to use a General on a Griffon (do's and don'ts)?
I wouldn’t put my general on a Griffon.  You want the terror effect of the mount but committing your general to do that risks throwing the game away when the inevitable counter-attack kills the unit he‘s with.

7. How best to break a chaos line?
You need to be doing everything to wear them down as they try to close the gap with you.  The ideal scenario is for the Chaos brigades to reach your defensive link piecemeal where they either bounce off or can be counter-attacked by your knights.  Which is another argument for having smaller heavy cavalry brigades.  Chaos usually come at Empire with a screen of hounds to absorb the cannon balls.  If you can get the timing right, throw the flagellants out to engage them and then re-position the cannons if necessary to fire on the unengaged heavier units in the second wave.  If they’re in column, the bounce through can even mess up Chaos Warriors. 

8. How to best combat the many fast movers?
See answers 2 and 7.