Drive Backs and Make Way

[Grimnir]

Hi guys, I have 2 questions regarding Drive backs and Making Way.

Please see the scenario below:
1 – Grey warmachine shoots at the Red unit in a brigade.
2 – Path of Drive back is as as shown (only the path of the closest stand.)
3 – Blue unit decides to make way – aside. That means, that if all Blue stands are in a way of the Red unit (which is the case here), you need to move a stand which would move the shortest way to get out of the way (as shown). The stand making way actually moves forward in this case (that is the shortest possible way without causing the Yellow unit to make way too.)


4 – Rest of the blue unit gets arranged around the first stand.
5 – Closest stand of the Red unit gets moved the appropriate distance.
6 – The remaining stands of the Red unit get arranged around the first stand in a way, that none of the stands is closer to the shooting unit then the first one. In this case, the player is allowed to place the unit so one of the stands is touching the Yellow and Green units, allowing the whole brigade to be given a command and move together in the next turn (but at a half pace because of the irregular formation).


So the questions are:
A) Am I correct about the path of Drive back? Does the whole unit use the same path as the closest stand? (I assume the same applies for the Evade.)

B) Is the above scenario correct or did I make a mistake somewhere?
How we were playing it so far was that the unit making way aside had to actually move to the side. But it moves forward in this case (assuming that it is the shortest possible distance to get out of the way.)

Thanks!

[Lex]

Looks OK, and you did well not to call for a Reform, as that is only after H2H

[Grimnir]

Thanks Lex.
The reform is out of question. You can do that only at the end of combat phase if the unit was in combat that round.
The think that we didn't know is that it is actually possible to move the unit forward while making way. - That means that at step 4, you actually could even put the stand in front of the first one - and get 6cm closer to the enemy as a result of making way. - Which I have to say sounds a bit odd to me, but it seems that it's what the rules say.

[jchaos79]

I read it very quickly but sounds like warmaster game. I did not see illegal movements.

[Dave]

Your drive back path is correct, and I assume it can be placed in a irregular formation (I think that's a "suitable formation") like you did as long as no stand is closer than the first one you moved.

Once this first stand has been positioned, remaining stands move back along the same path into a suitable formation but cannot be placed closer to the driving unit than the first stand.

The rules on making way never mention moving forward though, just "aside and back".

When a unit makes way for another, it can either move aside or back.

I don't think blue moving forward counts as it moving "aside". It would have to move left or right (making yellow make way) for that. In any case, moving forward wasn't the shortest path.

If the entire unit lies within the path of the friendly unit then all stands must be moved, in this case the player begins with the stand that must move the shortest distance to get out of the path of its friends.

So you'd begin with the stand that must move the shortest distance (that's the top blue stand).

This stand is moved the shortest distance out of the path of its friends without changing its orientation.

That shortest distance is to the right.

The remaining stands are then rearranged into formation around the first. Note that unit’s that are moving aside can change their formation as they do so. See diagram 57.1.

And given that bit, I don't think blue could be in any kind of formation other than an irregular one if it moved aside.

[raia]

Do we want to play chess or WM ?

I think that formation of stands in unit should be unchanged. Simplicity for mass battle game is right step.

[wmchaos2000]

WM.
Applying WM-rules also means rolling several Confusion-tests. 1/2 per unit.
Which is too random for a skilled general.
Instead unit blue refuses to move and thus unit red gets auto-confused.
In next turn units blue, yellow and green gets to initiative-charge or ordered without any pre-randomness.
 

[Grimnir]

Thanks for the discussion. However, I hoped that we'll come to some kind of conclusion.
Could you please continue in the discussion? 

The main thing here is that actually moving forward as Make Way - Aside doesn't make much sense in the meaning of logic.

Raia:
Rules for Make Way - aside specifically say that the unit making way can change formation. It is not only implied by how the moving of stands is described. It also says it directly.

Dave:
I'm not sure about a few things here:

When a unit makes way for another unit, it can either move aside or back.

When all the units face the same direction, it seems simple. Aside - move the unit to its side; Back - move the unit backwards.
However, it get's a bit more complicated if the units are not facing the same direction. For example, if one of the is turned by 90 degrees to protect the side of the brigade (which is not rare when you're closing on the enemy).
How to determine the direction of Aside then?

Also, the definition of Back says, that the unit moves in the same direction as the friendly unit. That means, it doesn't move to its back, unless the shooting unit was directly in front of its target (which in this scenario it wasn't).
The direction is determined by the direction of the shooting unit. And if we restrict the Make Way - Aside to be to the side, it should be determined by the same in order to make sense.

Shortest distance is to the right.

It is, if yellow unit makes way. However, if you decide not to make way with the yellow unit and make it "Unyielding Friends", it is not (as the blue unit just cannot move there, as if it was impassable terrain). So it has to choose an alternative route.


Raia: On the pictures you posted, the units making way Back do not move in the correct direction. They would need to move in the same direction as the Red unit.
In 3b1), the blue unit would have to remain next to the red unit (not behind), causing yellow to make way anyway.


What I'm suggesting is to create a house rule to restrict the units making way to move forward, so it could move to the back and side, behind the yellow and green - the shortest path to get out of the way (assuming yellow doesn't make way). The definition of the line that stands coudn't cross is not clear yet.


However, I'm still curious about how to interpret the rules as they are written. It doesn't seem that there would be consensus.

[Dave]

Not sure why a whole unit turned 90 from others matters. Aside is to the retreating/falling back unit's flanks (perpendicular to the direction of the retreat/fall back), back is along the same path with it. How other friendly units are position around the unit making way has no impact on this. If it has to make way it either moves back with the retreating/falling back unit or out of the path via the shortest possible path.

If that shortest possible path is into unyielding friends then it's confused, it doesn't get to choose another path (unless you can point out that bit in the rules).

[Grimnir]

Not sure why a whole unit turned 90 from others matters. Aside is to the retreating/falling back unit's flanks (perpendicular to the direction of the retreat/fall back), back is along the same path with it. How other friendly units are position around the unit making way has no impact on this. If it has to make way it either moves back with the retreating/falling back unit or out of the path via the shortest possible path.

If that shortest possible path is into unyielding friends then it's confused, it doesn't get to choose another path (unless you can point out that bit in the rules).

This might be the touchstone.
I consulted my brittish colegue and the Oxford Dictionary, and "Aside" doesn't neccesserily imply pependicularity, even if it's put into one sentense with back. Mostly, it does but often, it literally means "Out of the way". And the pependicularity is not mentioned anywhere in the rules.

Unyielding fried effectively works as impassable terrain. The unit just cannot go there.
So what's the difference between A and B below?


The note about 90 degrees was meant just to point out that the direction only makes sense in relation to the direction of the drive back.

[Dave]

OK, but the definition of  "aside" is still moot. You must move out of the via the shortest path. In your original example that was to blue's right, not to its front.

With A), if yellow refuses to make way for blue then you either have to move blue back or have it become confused. If it becomes confused red then becomes confused (if it's a drive back) or is destroyed (if it's retreating from combat).

With B), blue's only choice is to move back. If it doesn't, red is confused (if being driven back) or is destroyed (if it's retreated from combat).

[Grimnir]

It is moot. One cannot argue on that. 

With B), blue's only choice is to move back. If it doesn't, red is confused (if being driven back) or is destroyed (if it's retreated from combat).

By "back" here, do you mean the direction in which the unit moves or the type of making way (aside/back)?
If direction – then I agree.
If type of making way – then I think the move is not valid, because blue has to move in the same direction as the red unit.

Now to the bit of rules (I know it's playing with words and implying, but how else to analyze text):
Is it the red unit (driven back) or the blue unit (making way) that would force yellow to make way?

My thinking process with 2 options:

1) The decisions of making / not making way are subsequent:
1a) Red unit is driven back. Path is set.
1b) Blue unit decides to make way. Path is set.
1c) Yellow unit decides if it makes way or not. It doesn't.
1d) Blue unit cannot move along the designed path. It is confused.
1e) Red unit cannot move along the designed path. It is confused.

2) The decision is made at the same time and then the paths are set.
2a) Red unit is driven back. Path is set.
2b) Blue unit decides to make way.
2c) Yellow unit decides not to make way.
2d) Path for the blue unit is set.
2e) Blue unit moved.
2f) Red unit moves.

As neither of those is written in the rules, what bit of rules in the Make Way section of the rules decides?
I think it could be the "Who is making the units to make way?"
If each of the units causes the next one to make way, it is A (subsequent decisions).
If the red (driven back) unit causes all of the units to make way, then it is B (the decisions are made at the same time).
According to this piece of rules, it is the red unit.


I know it's not described in the rules. But then, the rules cannot describe every possible scenario.

The following two bits of rules could mean that the blue unit cannot move. But I don't think so.

"A unit forced against unyielding friends halts on contact and becomes confused."

I think a unit making way is not forced to move into the yielding one. It's intentional move.

Units that are engaged in combat, constricted by terrain or unable to move for whatever reason cannot make way.

None of the conditions mentioned applies to the blue unit.

So I found suggestions that it can choose to move back, but none that it cannot.

[Grimnir]

With A), if yellow refuses to make way for blue then you either have to move blue back or have it become confused. If it becomes confused red then becomes confused (if it's a drive back) or is destroyed (if it's retreating from combat).

As it's not given by the rules, the comunity has to decide. Most of the Brno comunity says that you're correct in this. So be it.

With B), blue's only choice is to move back. If it doesn't, red is confused (if being driven back) or is destroyed (if it's retreated from combat).

Raia and Truhlik have brought up an interesting point:
The first stand of blue unit has to move the shortest distence WITHOUT CHANGING ORIENTATION.
The gap rule says, that if the gap is at least 20mm wide, a unit can pass through it. However, it gives an example saying "an infantry stand might be turned to its side to move through..."
So if the path of drive back itself blocks the path (which is logical, as the drive back and the evade take place at the same time), the blue stand really cannot move back, as it would have to change orientation to get through the gap.

However, if it had free path to the front (if there wasn't the piece of impassable terrain), the shortest path would technically lead forward. Which I think doesn't "smell" right, and suggested a house rule to forbid getting closer to the unit causing the drive back/retreat.

[Aldhick]

No wonder our last 2K game took 4 hours   

[Grimnir]

Hey, you did take a piece of that time too.