Unit turning/facing?

[Soulless]

Hi guys, having engaged in some miniature gaming lately I figured I would bring out my warmaster stuff and try to set up a few games with friends.
I have the original rulebook printed but never got far enough into it to actually play and learn it (sadly).
So there are a few questions.


But right now, the main thing im wondering is how unit turning and facing is treated in Warmaster?
How do I move/measure movement for a unit if I wish it to turn and change its facing?
Is it treated as I remember Warhammer, where you measure the movement from the outward corner of the turning unit/brigade?
Or do I simply pick one stand, move and turn it as I please within allowed distance, then move the rest of the stands into position in formation with the first stand?

When units are driven back by shooting, are they allowed to rearrange their formation and/or change their facing?

When units are retreating after losing in combat, are they allowed to rearrange their formation and/or change their facing?

Thanks
Marcus

[Dave]

The easiest way to think about it is measure from the part of the base the moved the most. The rule we use is it takes 6.5cm for a stand to do a 180 turn about its center. Turning on one of its corner 180 is about 12.5cm.

See page 29/30 for drive back, yes:

When a unit is driven back its path is determined in a
comparable way to evading troops (see p22). Move
the stand that is closest to the driving unit directly
away from it without changing the orientation of
the stand. Once this first stand has been positioned,
remaining stands move back along the same path
into a suitable formation but cannot be placed
closer to the driving unit than the first stand. No
stand may change orientation when moved. Note
that the actual drive back measurement is made only
to the closest stand, other stands may move further
than the distance rolled and are often obliged to do
so. This flexibility allows the unit to rearrange its
formation as it retires. See Diagram 29.1

For retreats, see page 45, no:

A retreating unit moves away from the enemy without
changing formation or the direction it is facing.

[Soulless]

The easiest way to think about it is measure from the part of the base the moved the most. The rule we use is it takes 6.5cm for a stand to do a 180 turn about its center. Turning on one of its corner 180 is about 12.5cm.

See page 29/30 for drive back, yes:

When a unit is driven back its path is determined in a
comparable way to evading troops (see p22). Move
the stand that is closest to the driving unit directly
away from it without changing the orientation of
the stand. Once this first stand has been positioned,
remaining stands move back along the same path
into a suitable formation but cannot be placed
closer to the driving unit than the first stand. No
stand may change orientation when moved. Note
that the actual drive back measurement is made only
to the closest stand, other stands may move further
than the distance rolled and are often obliged to do
so. This flexibility allows the unit to rearrange its
formation as it retires. See Diagram 29.1

For retreats, see page 45, no:

A retreating unit moves away from the enemy without
changing formation or the direction it is facing.

Thanks for the quick reply!

So during ordinary movement, changing the facing (orientation) of a unit is not "free" while moving within its maximum range? I cant find this explained in the rulebook, making me believe that as long as no stand moves further away from its initial position then its movement allows, it can change orientation as it wishes. It makes for very simple and easy movement of units, but doesnt feel appropriate.
Your example makes more sense and feels better, is it houserules?


Units driven back by shooting CAN rearrange their formation, but not their orientation.
And units retreating can change neither.

Have i understood this correctly?

[Dave]

Not a house rule, see Moving the Stands.

Technically, the second and third stand can be change their orientation when being driven back.

[Soulless]

Not a house rule, see Moving the Stands.

Technically, the second and third stand can be change their orientation when being driven back.

"No stand may change orientation when moved" !?
Quoted from the quote you posted above

[Aldhick]

Just one point. Since the original rulebook, the rules have been significantly updated.
 Check for the updated version and errata here http://wm-selector.appspot.com/ (top right corner)

[Dave]

When each stand is moved, no part of the
stand can move further than its permitted maximum
movement distance.

[Grimnir]

The easiest way to think about it is measure from the part of the base the moved the most. The rule we use is it takes 6.5cm for a stand to do a 180 turn about its center. Turning on one of its corner 180 is about 12.5cm.

Technically, distance from a center of a stand to its corner is 4,47cm, which, if we follow that logic makes it 7cm, rather than 6,5 for a stand to make a 180 turn.

As I perceive it (I'm not saying it's correct), a stand is not a fixed formation of troops. As the rules say:

The area occupied by a regiment of models is assumed to encompass hundreds of warriors including all of their supporting elements such as mules laden with spare ammunition, surgeons’ wagons, preachers, servants, messengers, scouts and all the paraphernalia of warfare.

Therefore, a stand turning on the spot might mean the units switching places rather than the actual formation making a circle around its center.

For it to make more sense, i'd like to talk about a unit moving and turning at the same time, rather than a unit turning on the spot. To me, the ideal example would be an infantry unit (4cm frontage) moving through a 2cm gap and finishing its move facing the same direction as it started the move.
Garp rule implies, that the unit has tu be turned so it can pass through the gap.

I see two possible ways to approach measuring this;
1. Move the unit and then measure a "zig-zag" path through the gap for wach of the units flanks, making sure it didn't exceed the units movement. In other words, measure the distance of each part of the stand (in reality just the parts that moved the furthest) to its original destination.
2. Move the unit towards the gap, turning it, move it through the gap and then move it to the final position, turning it again. In other words, measure each part of the movement separately and do the math.

I prefer approach #1 as it's more simple and to me, it corresponds better to the above mentioned quote from the rulebook.


What follows is just a bit of good old speculating. 
It just came into my mind while I was thinking about the whole thing, so I'm putitng it down.
If we follow that approach #1, I think we should follow the same if the stands are just turning on the spot (meaning if they turn 180, the straight corner-to corner distance is 4,47cm).
It doesn't make any difference when an infrantry or cavalry is turning on the spot. But it does make a difference if, for example an artilery unit in irregular formation would want to turn 180. If a stand had to circle around its center, it would not be allowed to do that using the 5cm half-pace movement (because making a circle would mean going 7cm).



What's your opinion about it?
Dave, you said that you're using 6,5cm to represent a unit turning 180. How do you do it when it's turning during a move, not just on the spot?

[Dave]

Ya, too much math in my head.

• The distance from the center of a 20x40mm stand to one of its corners is 22.36mm (a^2 + b^2 = c^2 => 10^2 + 20^2 = 500^.5).
• The circumference of a circle with a radius of 22.36mm is 140.43mm (2*pi*r).
• So a 180 degree turn about the center is 7cm.

If a unit has to move up to a gap, turn, move through it, turn and then move again each part of that needs to be accounted for (so your example #2).

When there's no gap involved though I usually move the whole unit to where I want it and then rotate it in such a way that it won't cost more movement. The majority of the time it's good enough, and we don't get bogged down in a geometry lesson.