Charging with flying units

[Guthwine]

I have a question concerning flying units, because I once talked with spiritusX about that but I could not find any reference for his view in the rulebook.

Here is the situation:


C..enemy artillery (on a hill)
P..pegasus knights (on a hill)
the two block are random brigades. (red = enemy)

The question is, can my pegasus knights charge artillery from the front over the enemy brigade or do I have to have a straight line without any enemy units in between the flyers and the target.

From what I have read, it specifially says that flying units move over enemy/friendly units and may only touch the enemy if they charge. So from my point of view I have everything I need to charge the artillery battery. LOS and enough room to place the attackers in front of the cannons.
SpiritusX argued that it is not allowed as I have to charge the screening brigade because its in the way, which would be convinient but I cant find that passage anywhere in the rulebook. (@Spiritus: If you ment something different when we were talking, I am sorry but thats how I remember it. )

Any ideas?

[jchaos79]

Hi Guthwine,

IMO Pegasus knights don't have Line of Sight. They can see as a normal unit (doesn't matter if it is a flyer unit), so the Red is blocking its LOS.

According to charging rules pag 32 "Enemy in sight" section friendly/enemy units block LOS to perform charges.

I haven't found any rules regarding charges in the flying unit section.

Artillery is an exception to the LOS rules as they can shoot to higher or lower targets, but I think it does not apply to charging.

cheers

[azrael71]

I interpret it as this.
If this was a non flying unit then it would have to charge the red block of troops.
But it is a flying unit.
It can see the artillery (LOS) due to the fact of them both being on hills and can therefore charge the artillery.
If this was not the case then the pegasus knights would also be screened from the artillery by the red unit!

[Guthwine]

JChaos is right! Allthough such a charge would make sense (at least to me), it is all stated in the "What can flying units see" section.

Even
though a flying unit can fly over another unit, or over
terrain such as a wood, flying stands still can’t see
through other stands or obstructive terrain. This
forces flying units to move towards their targets
rather than simply bouncing enemy units out of the
blue, and it enables enemy units to avoid aerial attack
if they have screening units or if there is plenty of
terrain.

Turns out, reading the rulebook from time to time, is a good thing.

If this was not the case then the pegasus knights would also be screened from the artillery by the red unit!

This is not the case because artillery has the special rule with overhead shooting, which flying units do not have, so in this case he can shoot but I cant charge.

[CT Yankee]

To say that Red blocks LOS between two units that are both at higher elevations is just gamesmanship.  If you wish to make a strict interpretation of the rules, the Peg Knight is not viewing the Artillery through the Red unit - it is looking over the Red unit since Red is on a lower level.  The charge should be allowed. 

If, however, you cannot agree on the interpretation of the rules, per se, common sense should be applied.  If the artillery can see the Peg Knight the PK can, in turn, see the artillery.  Charge is allowed.

[Bel]

And BTW IIRC if the distance between Pegasi and the Red enemy is less than 20cm -> Pegasi must charge it by initiative

[CT Yankee]

For a charge on Initiative you must charge the nearest unit, which is Red in this case.  Elevation differences don't matter.

Red doesn't screen the Artillery from the Peg Knights - PK still has LOS to the arty - but Red is closer so must be the target of an initiative charge.

However, PK can elect not to make the initiative charge and, assuming there is a charater with 20cm, can charge under orders.  In this case PK could elect to charge the Arty.

Further, assuming that the white block is within range, White could charge Red on initiative.  If, after the charge, White covers the entire frontage of Red then the PK would then be free to charge the Arty - PK can see over both Red and White and the Arty is now the nearest target the PK can see.

[Stomm]

There is no room for 'interpretation' in the rules. The artillery can (assuming the pegasus usit is the closest eligible target) shoot at the pegasus unit, but since LoS for charging makes no difference if the charging unit is a flyer or not, the red unit does indeed block LoS for charging.


As I have said in another thread, if flyers had the same LoS rules for charging as artillery has for shooting, then flyers really would inbalance the game, especially with their 100cm move and in larger battles they would litterally dominate the battlefield as they would be able to pounce on almost any command mistake, failed command roll, etc... just through the use of a handy hill about 90cm away...

[Lex]

There is no room for 'interpretation' in the rules. The artillery can (assuming the pegasus usit is the closest eligible target) shoot at the pegasus unit, but since LoS for charging makes no difference if the charging unit is a flyer or not, the red unit does indeed block LoS for charging.


As I have said in another thread, if flyers had the same LoS rules for charging as artillery has for shooting, then flyers really would inbalance the game, especially with their 100cm move and in larger battles they would litterally dominate the battlefield as they would be able to pounce on almost any command mistake, failed command roll, etc... just through the use of a handy hill about 90cm away...

I dont always agree with David   , but in this case he is fully correct !!

No CLEAR LOS, no charge! and for purpose of charging that LOS follows the lvl or terrain. We asked Rick about this early on, his rational is what David describes above, it would overenhance the capacities of flyers. And fluff-wise, the flyers would be overflying enemy units, possibly facing missile fire etc. which would make them hesitant to actualy make that move.

For those that WANT to give this option a go anyway, I would suggest that the flyers receive S&S attacks from EACH unit the "overfly" on their charge.

[CT Yankee]

Respectfully, Dave, I disagree.

Seems to me we had this exact same discussion some years ago on Max WM.  We couldn't agree than and, it seems, we still can't.  My opinion is that LOS goes both ways.  If your cannons can see, I can see your cannons.

[spiritusXmachina]

Maybe we should add the first sentence to the above quote...

When working out if a flying unit can see an enemy,
for shooting or charging for example, treat the flying
unit exactly as you would a unit on the ground.

Rulebook chapter Flying units

I totally agree with Stomm here. This is no sportsmanship or cheesy interpretation of the rules - this is a wanted restriction!
(Even though one has to add that a small line of sight between two enemy units would probably be enough for the flyers to still charge the ari.)

[CT Yankee]

For those that WANT to give this option a go anyway, I would suggest that the flyers receive S&S attacks from EACH unit the "overfly" on their charge.

So, flyers can go back and forth all day long - flying over anybody they want - and will only take this flak attack if they are charging?

I can maybe accept some of this one-way LOS interpretation (yes, interpretation) as a game mechanic if either the charging flyer or the target unit is on the the same lower level as the "screening" unit - but not if the charger and the target are BOTH on higher levels than the "screen".  

[Bel]

For those that WANT to give this option a go anyway, I would suggest that the flyers receive S&S attacks from EACH unit the "overfly" on their charge.

This is nice option for friendly games where such rules for flyers (charge on a direct LOS, not on a table projection ) are allowed.
And 'overfly' charge looks more logical for me if it will be combined with restricted LOS length (60cm as it was suggested years before and combined with drive back moves as for ground troops). Nevertheless - all above is for friendly/casual games and perhaps for a next game versions.

[Stomm]

I can maybe accept some of this one-way LOS interpretation (yes, interpretation) as a game mechanic if either the charging flyer or the target unit is on the the same lower level as the "screening" unit - but not if the charger and the target are BOTH on higher levels than the "screen".  

As I've said, there is no room for 'interpretation' in the rules, and in fact one of the good things about Warmaster is that is more often the case than not. There are very, very few 'grey areas', and certainly very few room the original rules plus the FAQ, although I have to admit that my mind is often muddled more recently as I haven't really studied the latest changes in any great detail and of course my 10mm mind has largely been preoccupied with Romans and the like...


Anyway, rambling aside. As I have said and others have bothered to quote from the rules themselves, it's all in black and white, and just because you disagree with a rule it does not mean that it suddenly becomes open to interpretation. If it helps, remember that in the Artillery 'Firing Overhead' rules it specifically mentions forward observers and the like, which I must admit is dragging something akin to the Somme onto a fantasy battlefield, but well it is a fantasy battlefield isn't it?




As an aside it may be worth considering restricting all charging LoS to 30cm. This in of itself would not solve the problem, as to enable flyers to charge over intervening troops you would need to insert another new rule. So, put quite simply it ain't broken, so lets not try to fix an issue that doesn't really exist in the first place shall we?

[jchaos79]

If it helps, remember that in the Artillery 'Firing Overhead' rules it specifically mentions forward observers and the like,

Exactly, full agree with Stomm. For me that is the "logical-mechanism" reason that convince me of the artillery exception. But all the cases that "don't have observers/artillery" the LOS is blocked