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Author Topic: skirmishing units  (Read 4032 times)

Offline jchaos79

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skirmishing units
« on: October 20, 2009, 05:43:09 PM »
Hi!

This post is just a personal reflexion, I am not willing change any rule officialy or something like that.

I have seen that skirmishing infantry units always carry problems when trying to get a safisfactory simulation in the rules (not only warmaster, but every set of rules that I read). These days the active thread of skinks in WMF (fantasy) seems another example of how take advantage of a rule to simulate skirmish. "A group of few infantry troops, with high movility, very few armoured to be a rapid unit and throwing weapons, destinated to bother the enemy armyline while deploying or maneavering. Also troops designed to eliminate routing units more than hitting the enemy".

WMF says they can shoot in 360º and have usually Attack 2.

WMF Empire skirmishers, are not the same unit style, the work as Greek/macedonian Hyspapist or what is the same as arquebusiers/hallberdiers in the historic Tercio o "cuadrado" (squares) Renaissance tactics. (At least is what I understood this unit)

WMA is a diferent stuff. I remember when WMA was realesed we quickly build up an egyptian army, and start to develop a nubian army to play the conflicts in the borderland near the second river fall for the miens of gold. They Nubian army was mainly an skirmishing army, so again the rules to simulate skirmish take advantage over the simulation, and I remember a lot of egyptian defeats. During these days I remember a lot of possible changes in WMA community, so something was going bad with skirmishing rule. At last WMAArmies was released with changes, quite sophisticated to fix that advantage of the rules.

They work well, but doesn’t satisfy completely. In WMA skirmishers attack with 2 dice (if I rememeber well).

In our gaming group think that skirmisers could be simulated better giving an Attack of 1 dice, and/or reducing the number of stands per unit to 2 instead the normal 3. That represents the few people of them. Those house-changes apply for WMF and WMA.

Does some of you have ever think something like that?
Does some of you have tried it? How was the experience? (in terms of simulation, in terms of winning-at-all-cost this changes will be a catastrophe, I know).

I always been talking about infantry skirmishers. Mounted or cavalry skirmisher are other story!

I play less of what I liked to, so we did not test it, because when came the real moment we prefer to follow the normal rules and have lot of fun, instead trying to evaluate the changes, so all of the above expose cames from just talking and chatting.

(what a long post!… sorry for the grammar and the length of the message, I could not sum up better the ideas)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 05:45:25 PM by jchaos79 »

Offline lilith

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Re: skirmishing units
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2009, 10:13:52 PM »
skirmishing rules in a game where a base is 3 hundred men is little sense for me , they can be interesting in warhammer games but for warmaster i din't need rules for skirmisher.

Offline Guthwine

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Re: skirmishing units
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2009, 10:27:22 PM »
A skirmishing unit does not have to be a small unit, the main difference is that they are in a mobile, loose formation.

And I dont now about your miniatures, but I dont get 300 men on 3 WM bases. :D :P

Allthough I have never played WMA (sadly) I really like the skirmisher rules and think that this way they are simulated as good as it gets in a TT game.
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Offline Stomm

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Re: skirmishing units
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2009, 07:30:25 AM »
And I dont now about your miniatures, but I dont get 300 men on 3 WM bases. :D :P

That is however roughly the number of men, elves or goblins (probably more like between 300 and 500) represented by each stand of infantry in Warmaster. Oddly enough Warhammer's scale is also rather nebulous, but people tend to forget about the 'if one elf can beat five goblins, then ten elves can beat fifty goblins' bit at the start of teh Warhammer rulebook. That's a paraphrase BTW, I can't recall the 'exact' words...



As to skimishers in Warmaster. Well general chucking rocks or sharp pointy sticks skirmishing is in my mind at least partially accounted for in the -1 command modifer for proximity to the enemy. But, 'real' skirmishers in Warmaster really don't work in anything like a satisfactory manner. By this I mean that they are far too easy to trap and kill. Likewise whilst the skirmisher rules in WMA seem to work pretty well (largely people shouting 'they are overpowered' is as a result of them failing to counter them in their games yet. They are like cannons in WM, you need to adapt your tactics and formations otherwise you will get severely punished...), they do take an awful long time and effectively add a 'skirmish phase' to a battle which can last for several turns as each army tries to wipe the other's skirmishers out...


So I would not advocated introducing the WMA skirmish rules to WMF, as it would detract from the fast play tempo of the game. I must admit however that the case of Kislev Horse Archers and the like (in fact especially the Kislev army as a whole) makes it very tempting indeed. So, my simple 'half-way-house' suggestion has always been to introduce a new skirmisher troop type in the pursuit allowance table to replace flyers, which would have the same benefits and restictions as flyers, but obviously without the ability to fly. Then of course you just add flying as a movement rule, and you can even classify Dwarf Rangers as skirmishers rather than give them their specific special rule.


In summary:

Skirmishers can pursue everything
Cavalry, monsters and IIRC machines can pursue everything bar skirmishers
infantry can only pursue other infantry and artillery
artillery, well if forced to retreat it gets destroyed anyway, so are you sure that you want to pursue with it?

Offline CT Yankee

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Re: skirmishing units
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2009, 07:55:38 AM »
....So, my simple 'half-way-house' suggestion has always been to introduce a new skirmisher troop type in the pursuit allowance table to replace flyers, which would have the same benefits and restictions as flyers, but obviously without the ability to fly. Then of course you just add flying as a movement rule, and you can even classify Dwarf Rangers as skirmishers rather than give them their specific special rule.


In summary:

Skirmishers can pursue everything
Cavalry, monsters and IIRC machines can pursue everything bar skirmishers
infantry can only pursue other infantry and artillery
artillery, well if forced to retreat it gets destroyed anyway, so are you sure that you want to pursue with it?

This seems reasonable.  In fact, I quite like it.  May necessitate some reevaluation of point costs for skirmish units, though.
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Offline spiritusXmachina

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Re: skirmishing units
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2009, 08:10:14 AM »
Sounds at least worth some playtesting.

But would'nt it be appropriate to differ a bit so that Skirmisher troops may only pursue the next "higher level" of troops?
For example infantry skirmishers may only pursue/be pursuited by cavalry, cavalry skirmishers may only pursue/be pursuited by flyers?

And should'nt shooting and 360° sight (and maybe 15cm shooting reach) be the other abilities skirmisher should always have?

Although a nice idea the problem I see with 2-base units (with accordingly reduced point-prize) is that it does help a lot to push up the break point and maybe make it a lot harder to win over that army over all (even if the skirmishers are ignored in combat).
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Offline Lex

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Re: skirmishing units
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2009, 09:28:34 AM »
If I remember of the top of my head, the "other" option to create a skirmisher type unit in WM was:

units that have the skirmisher rule (which may or may not include Empire infantry with associated Skirmishers.......) get to roll S&S and directly after roll for a Fall Back move (out of normal order). If the fallback move does not place them outside the original charge distance, they still count as contacted, and must fight the first round of contact as if Confused.

This rule can be used once per turn, and it does NOT stop the attacker from giving a subsequent order to charge the Skirmishers when they DID fall back outside the original charge distance.

Offline jchaos79

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Re: skirmishing units
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2009, 09:36:32 AM »

Although a nice idea the problem I see with 2-base units (with accordingly reduced point-prize) is that it does help a lot to push up the break point and maybe make it a lot harder to win over that army over all (even if the skirmishers are ignored in combat).


If I understood you right... the breakpoint will not be a problem. skirmishing units do not count to calculate the breakpoint (in WMA).
With the idea of 2-base then if you want to buy them you have a cheap 2 stand unit to bother your enemy, pursuit... that not high your nominal breakpoint but could be killed during the battle without counting as a unit destroyed.

Offline Stomm

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Re: skirmishing units
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2009, 10:34:25 PM »
Sounds at least worth some playtesting.

But would'nt it be appropriate to differ a bit so that Skirmisher troops may only pursue the next "higher level" of troops?
For example infantry skirmishers may only pursue/be pursuited by cavalry, cavalry skirmishers may only pursue/be pursuited by flyers?

I should probably have said that I don't see any need for skimishing infantry to be included in the normal part of the game (Dwarf Rangers being the possible exception), and by including it as a troop type in pace of flyers it makes life that much simpler.

And should'nt shooting and 360° sight (and maybe 15cm shooting reach) be the other abilities skirmisher should always have?



In most instances yes, but not all skirmishers need have missile abilities...