[AL] Chaos Dwarf Blunderbusses

[Aldhick]

by Alexander

  issue: limited effective use

What about blunderbus units? Does anyone take them? They seem overpriced what you get in comparison to say dwarf thunderers? One shot at 15cm Per stand inline formation (or 1 shot per unit in the fire corridoor with the special rule) just seems overpriced at 90pts compared to thunderers with 30cm and -1 save? Or does the shoot in collum rule realy offset this and make it worthwhile? (Ammount of shots per stand in collum per enemy unit in 4cm wide 15cm lenth area) It seems so limited for the 90points.

One rule of say 2 shots per stand at 15cm  seems more easy and in line with the fluff and keeping it simpel. (Hail of schrapnel at close range).

I've used Blunderbuss units a few times with mixed results. Get them in the right place against the right army and they are devastating. I've seen a block of 4 units in column march up in front of a densely packed Undead army and the end result is very messy (placed right a single unit can inflict 24 attacks!) Conversely, against smaller armies with tough/expensive troops who are not in dense formations they fare far less well.
Overall I found they work best paired up with the orc slaves... roll up to the front of a brigade send some orcs into the fray then let rip on everything (orcs included) and watch the support melt away (works especially well if you get a volcanic erruption off... Bull Centaurs to the brigades flank probably counts as excessive though  )

some previous discussion on the issue
http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=5782.msg58432#msg58432

[Ole]

I have to issues with that:

First the scale that Warmaster is in, I wouldn't make much difference in weapons.
Second the original concept of Warmaster does not need many special rules.

I would say use the Dwarf Handgunner statline incl. Special rule call them Blunderbuss and there you go!

Ole

[Alexander]

A reference I used:
High Elf Archer:  1 shot 30 cm +1 to hit (75 pts)
Dark elf crossbow: 2 shots 15cm ---- 1 shot at 30cm (75 pts)

Looking at the above the following reference and suggestion for Chaos Dwarfs.
Dwarf handguns: 30cm, -1 save (90pts)

CD's Blunderbuss:  15cm,  2 shots (90Pts)   just like the repeater xbows at short range but instead of bolts it shoots shrapnel at close range.

It would not bring a new rule mechanic into the game as it is a slimmed down version of the dark elf crossbows which are official rules.
Just my 0,02$

[honestmistake]

would you still give them 1 shot at 30cm (as the Dark Elves) or just a flat 2 shots 15cm range? If the 2nd option they would be very powerful when shooting at chargers...

[Alexander]

Blunderbuss Infantry 3/2 I 4 hits I 6+ save I 90pts I  -/2 min/max

2 shots at 15cm (no 30cm shot) and either 1 or 2 shots when being charged.

At this moment I find it difficult to say if it should be 1 or 2 shots when being charged. They are a special unit of max 2 per 1000.  CD's have a 9 command making the army as a whole less effective when compared to dwarfs and elfs. But i can also see that there is a chance that it could make the unit too powerfull when giving 2 shots flat out .

2 shots at 15cm and 1 shot when being charged would probably be the safest option to start with.

[Ole]

I would still like to argue to use something that is already there:
eihter handgunner or crossbowelfs stats but nothing new. Your are most probably right that crossbowelfs are the better weapon.

Ole

[andys]

I'd be tempted to go with 2 shots at 15cm, regardless of whether they are being charged or not. A Blunderbuss tends to be a short range weapon that throws out a lot of metal, so there should be no loss of effect shooting at chargers, a storm of metal is still going downrange.

This makes them a very dangerous unit to attack as per the Warhammer fluff.

[Grimnir]

Is the current direction to take the special column shooting from them?
I was giving Blunderbusses a lot of thinking at one time. And the special rule is what I really like about them. I never tried playing them or against them though.
I am reluctant to let that special rule go. What I think about it is that it is quite hard to play it well, but when you do, it can be really strong.

You got a good point in the fact that WM does not need many special rules. However, some of the armies have something really special (Bretonnian break point calculation, undead undeadness, kislev war wagon etc). And I consider blunderbusses to be among those. It is something special which makes chaos dwarfs stand out and increases the variety of the game.

A thought of them being overpriced was brought up along with un-usefulness against armies with though infantry.

What about giving them 2/1 shots (shooting / being charged) in a line formation only, and still let them have their column shooting special rule? They would become useful as short-ranged shooters against tough infantry (which I guess would be played the most) while still giving the opportunity to be used as something special.

What do you guys think about this direction?

[Aldhick]

Just my opinion from general point of view

15cm range infantry weapon means it has extremely limited efficiency in overall tactics and it will be 90% useful only when doing stand and shoot. So giving it 15cm range and 2 shots even when being charged will make them extremely good in defensive role, but rarely useful in other situations (or very difficult to use).


the argument "they suck, but they can be usefull when used properly" is not working for me. This means that there are limited amount of situations where they can be used effectively and therefore most players won't bother taking them, because there are another units that can be used effectively in every situations. And solving the problem by making special rule even more complicated is definitely not the right way I recon. I'm on the "simple solution" side.

[Grimnir]

And solving the problem by making special rule even more complicated is definitely not the right way I recon. I'm on the "simple solution" side.

I do not thing the rule would need to get more complicated. Only two things would need to be changed.
1. The number of shooting attacks would increase to 2.
2. The last bit of the special rule "Otherwise, Blunderbusses
unit stands-and-shoots in standard way" would change to something like "Otherwise, Blunderbusses
unit stands-and-shoots in standard way with 1 attack."
Which does not seem to be complicating the rule much.

[empireaddict]

I have played about a dozen games with Chaos Dwarves.  I have never used the Blunderbusses.  Looked at the rules for them and decided that they just are not worth the points.  Did not even buy any minis.  No strong opinions on what the fix should be.

[andys]

I have played about a dozen games with Chaos Dwarves.  I have never used the Blunderbusses.  Looked at the rules for them and decided that they just are not worth the points.  Did not even buy any minis.  No strong opinions on what the fix should be.

See, there's the thing. If experienced players don't use them, there must be something wrong with the  unit. In Warhammer they would be taken as part of an army, so obviously their rules need adjusting to make them attractive in Warmaster.

Any unit should be worth the points. Yes, some will be more desirable than others but each should be desirable enough that a player has tough choices when it comes to army selection - not simply ignoring a unit completely.

Out of interest empireaddict, what does your usual Chaos Dwarf army comprise please?

[empireaddict]

@andys, data before late 2015 is not admissible because the CDs themselves changed from 3|4|5+ to 3|4|4+ which, by the way, was definitely a 'good thing'!  Looking at lists used since,  after the compulsory 4 CDs, I have tended to go for 2 Black Orcs, 2 or 3 Wolf Riders, 3 Bull Centaurs (I use Orc Boar Riders as proxies), and then a mixture of Orc slaves and/or Cannons.  Usually I only go for one magic user (usually upgrade the general) because the spells are underwhelming at best.  Then 1 vanilla hero and 1 with a scary mount.

[honestmistake]

I've not played CDs as much but I can't agree with Empireadict at all here. The spells are a lot better than many lists and Blunderbuss units as thety stand are very effective if you get them in the right place. I'd never base an army around them but 2  units backed up with slaves are a must for me every time I play them.

[empireaddict]

We must agree to differ! For me, spending 90 points on a vulnerable (6+ armour) unit in the hope that I will be able to "get them in the right place" is too much of a gamble.  Better to spend an extra 20 points and get another hard CD unit.  Or even a second Earthshaker?!